# Ending sentences with a preposition **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 28, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962 "2013-04-28T23:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/1 "2013-04-28T23:17:36Z")
I’ve heard before that you shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition. However, I see a lot of that going on here at The Dope and I’m wondering why is it bad? Also, I’m not even sure if I understand the concept fully. Feel free to elaborate on the answer as much as you desire. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/2 "2013-04-28T23:20:58Z")
It’s the sort of thing up with which one should not put. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/3 "2013-04-28T23:26:15Z")
Stranger approaches a student on an ivy-league campus, says “Hey Buddy, where is the library at?” Student frowns and says “Pardon me, but here at Harvard, we don’t end sentences with a preposition.” Stranger says “Ok, where’s the library at, _Asshole_?” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/4 "2013-04-28T23:34:22Z")
No, there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s some kind of grammar superstition, and I’m pretty sure even most prescriptivist grammarians today say it’s fine. There might be some instances in which it’s best avoided, but there’s no general proscription against it in English. I’m not sure I ever was formally taught that ending a sentence with a preposition was incorrect. Hell, I’m pretty sure even Strunk & White, who tend to be grammatically conservative, say it’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/5 "2013-04-28T23:35:18Z")
Well, it’s obvious. A preposition is a word that goes before another word. If a word is at the end of a sentence, it’s not going before another word, so it can’t be a preposition. It must be something else, perhaps an adverb or a particle. (Slightly more seriously, it’s a kind of sentence structure that English inherited as a Germanic language. Latin doesn’t do it that way, and because Latin didn’t do it, English grammarians thought that it must be wrong in English. It isn’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/6 "2013-04-28T23:37:11Z")
Because there are those who believe that language should proceed logically. These people believe that Latin is a logical language. In Latin a sentence ending with a preposition would be meaningless or, at best, bad Latin. Therefore, since Latin should be the model for English, one should not end a sentence with a preposition. The problem is, language does not proceed logically, but socially (or naturally). Consequently, if you feel like ending your sentences with prepositions, then, hey, go to! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/7 "2013-04-28T23:49:41Z")
Another name for this is preposition stranding: > **[Preposition stranding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposition_stranding)** > > Historically, grammarians have described preposition stranding or p-stranding as the syntactic construction in which a so-called stranded, hanging or dangling preposition occurs somewhere other than immediately before its corresponding object; for example, at the end of a sentence. The term preposition stranding was coined in 1964, predated by stranded preposition in 1949. Linguists had previously identified such a construction as a sentence-terminal preposition or as a preposition at th Preposit... It’s now generally believed that the rule against it was made up out of nowhere and never did make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/8 "2013-04-28T23:51:34Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > No, there’s nothing wrong with it.\. That whrilling sound you hear is my English-Teacher-From-Hell spinning. This is something we will NOT tolerate! Next up: That/which as/like accept/except (do not believe this is even in play) sex/gender (just because adolescent males giggle at the word “sex” does not men we change the dictionary. No, I do NOT wish to hear “cite” (or is that "site’?) from discretionary-crap “dictionaries”. Where we place the word “only”. Hint: Anybody proudly proclaiming that they “Only Sleep With the Best” are probably getting exactly what they deserve ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/9 "2013-04-28T23:53:09Z")
But those examples actually have incorrect usages for the most part. Preposition stranding is not incorrect in English grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/10 "2013-04-28T23:55:35Z")
Here is my take on it. There are two separate issues. One involves a genuine preposition whose object–usually a Wh word, has moved. "Whom (or who, I am not getting into that) did you come with? Just because Latin didn’t allow that (if indeed Latin, a free word order language didn’t) doesn’t mean it isn’t perfectly correct in English, which it is. The second point, not taught in HS English, but obvious if you think about it is that, just as there are transitive and intransitive verbs–and many that can be used either way, there are transitive and intransitive “prepositions”–the latter are called adverbs==and many that can be used either way. Consider, “The plane took off”. Off what? Then sometimes it is transitive, but you omit the object, “I put my hat on [my head, presumably].” Interestingly, in French, at least in Quebec, you can even say the equivalent of, “I went out with” (“Je suis sortie avec”). It apparently means I went out with an unspecified someone. That doesn’t fly in English, which shows how idiosyncratic these things can be. It is amazing how much damage was done to English grammar by people convinced that Latin was perfect and rules had to be instituted to force English to be more like Latin. Don’t get me started on split infinitives. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/11 "2013-04-28T23:56:14Z")
Even Fowler, who is often described as a “grammarian’s grammarian” called it a “cherished superstition.” Read [here](http://www.legalwritingpro.com/articles/F49-five-grammar-myths.php): > [@](#): > > Chicago Manual of Style, 16th ed.: “an unnecessary and pedantic restriction” (5.176). > > Garner’s Modern American Usage: The rule is “spurious” (p. 654). > > Patricia O’Connor, Woe is I: “This idea caught on, even though great literature from Chaucer to Shakespeare to Milton is bristling with sentences ending in prepositions” (p. 183). > > Fowler’s Modern English Usage, 2nd ed.: “It was once a cherished superstition that prepositions must be kept true to their name and placed before the word they govern in spite of the incurable English instinct for putting them late” (p. 473). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/12 "2013-04-29T00:07:02Z")
We should agree _to not obey_ silly Latin rules when we’re speaking English. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/13 "2013-04-29T00:15:56Z")
Well said, John. Latin rules are for Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/14 "2013-04-29T00:25:43Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > That whrilling sound you hear is my English-Teacher-From-Hell spinning. In my experience, most english teachers, even ones from Hell, have little training in how language actually works. If you’re still in contact with said teacher, this may be an opportunity to reeducate. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/15 "2013-04-29T01:07:23Z")
The teacher in question was my mother, who graduated cum laude, OSU, at age 19. One of her strong suits was Latin. When I say “from Hell”, I know whereof I speak. Not “that I speak of”. Look at the bright side, I’ 63 with advanced kidney failure, as well as the OA to limit my typing. I’ll be gone soon enough… ---
**Author:** ![YourAdHere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/65b543/32.png) [@YourAdHere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourAdHere)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/16 "2013-04-29T01:09:25Z")
As an aside, there is a literary device (I forget its name ) sometimes used in Latin poetry in which the object of a preposition is placed BEFORE it, sometimes not even adjacent to it (Latin poetry can be like a jigsaw puzzle ). So it might not even be a hard and fast rule in Latin either. Then again, it’s poetry so rules are bent. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/17 "2013-04-29T01:41:12Z")
See, I just think it sounds clearer to follow this rule but the drawback is that it can become repetitive and tiring. **pulykammell** , I’m just going to use your sentence as an example. > [@pulykamell](#): > > No, there’s nothing wrong with it. I would think the sentence should read, “No there’s nothing wrong with ending sentences in the form of a preposition.” This helps by making the sentence clear and eliminates any ambiguity, but at the same time is a bit unnecessary considering the “it” should be understood. What are the upsides to following this rule? What are the drawbacks? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/18 "2013-04-29T01:57:21Z")
My brother at the dinner table once asked for a fork. Somebody asked why he needed a fork. He replied that he needed “something to eat his crab with”. Decades later he still can’t live it down as nobody knows exactly what “crab with” is substance wise. The fact he was a little grammar nazi back in the day was just icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/19 "2013-04-29T01:59:01Z")
Once again, the answer is that you _don’t_ end sentences with prepositions. None of the examples given so far has actually ended a sentence with one. What you have seen is the particle of a phrasal verb. Some verbs in English have more than one word: “put up with” “talk about” “put on” “put up” “throw up” The particle changes the meaning of the verb. Thus: “put” = “to place” “put up” = “to preserve, usually by canning” “put up with” = “to tolerate.” “talking” = “speaking” "talking about = “discussing a subject.” Particles are almost always words that are also used as prepositions, so people mistake one for another. But few people actually use a construction that actually is a preposition, like \*He is going to. \*She eats with ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/20 "2013-04-29T02:11:38Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > It’s the sort of thing up with which one should not put. Wow. I knew this would be posted in this thread at some point. To be honest, I was going to do it, but the first response? Talk about being quick off the tee. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962.md?page=2)