# Ending sentences with a preposition **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 28, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962 "2013-04-28T23:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/21 "2013-04-29T02:20:26Z")
It’s a Rule of Thumb, but so close to being an absolute Rule that we should put it into a sticky. If your high school English teacher taught it to you as a Rule, it’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/22 "2013-04-29T02:42:48Z")
Merriam Webster has a [video discussion](http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/0025-preposition.htm?&t=1367203154) on this, which includes a bit of the history. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/23 "2013-04-29T02:54:04Z")
Good stuff, Patty. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/24 "2013-04-29T02:59:47Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s a Rule of Thumb, but so close to being an absolute Rule that we should put it into a sticky. > > If your high school English teacher taught it to you as a Rule, it’s not true. But it’s not even a particularly good rule of thumb. I wouldn’t even give it that much credence. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/25 "2013-04-29T03:10:46Z")
I disagree. I think it takes more effort when you have this rule in the back of your mind. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/26 "2013-04-29T03:21:13Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I would think the sentence should read, “No there’s nothing wrong with ending sentences in the form of a preposition.” And there would be nothing wrong with that (well, minus the “in the form of a” part.) Or I could say: “There would be nothing wrong with writing the sentence as 'No, there’s nothing wrong with ending sentences with a preposition.” But it’s needlessly wordy and the tone is more formal than what I’m trying to convey. As for upsides and downsides to the “rule,” you’ve got me. You can read through Fowler’s [opinion on the matter here](http://books.google.com/books?id=Z4HI0RQIDK0C&pg=PA713&lpg=PA713&dq=%22a+good+land+to+live+in%22+fowler&source=bl&ots=wcF4YrZgLO&sig=jWO-0fXzRRfpCp_eUVF6AeXMfk8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1OR9UeuqGIqFqgHZ7IHICA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22a%20good%20land%20to%20live%20in%22%20fowler&f=false): > [@](#): > > _In &c, which to. England is, however the last country in which to say so./I have no money with which to buy food._ The current English for the second is indisputably _I have no money to buy food wit_ & there can hardly be a doubt that this has been formalized into the other by the influence of the PREPOSITION AT END superstition. No-one need hesitate about going back to nature & saying _to buy food with_. And even for the first ‘the last country to say so in’ is here recommended, though the very light wors _so_ happens to make with the other very light word _in_ an uncomfortably weak ending; much more is ‘a good land to live in’ superior to ‘a good land in which to live’. The entry of his book for “preposition at end” is not fully reproduced, but you can find some of it [here](http://books.google.com/books?id=Z4HI0RQIDK0C&pg=PA713&lpg=PA713&dq=%22a+good+land+to+live+in%22+fowler&source=bl&ots=wcF4YrZgLO&sig=jWO-0fXzRRfpCp_eUVF6AeXMfk8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1OR9UeuqGIqFqgHZ7IHICA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22preposition%20at%20end%22&f=false). Fowler–remember, a “grammarian’s grammarian,” not coming from the linguistic descriptivist tradition–thought the whole “rule of thumb” to be pretty silly or, to use his words, “superstition.” And this is from a book written in 1926, so it’s not exactly new-fangled, liberal, free-for-all English grammar. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/27 "2013-04-29T03:22:51Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I disagree. I think it takes more effort when you have this rule in the back of your mind. I’m not sure what you mean by this. Even the major style guide for American English, the Chicago Manual of Style, calls it “unnecessary” and “pedantic.” IMHO, and it’s a very strong opinion at that, it is dumb and useless, even as a rule of thumb, leading to over-wrought and needlessly awkward sentences. ---
**Author:** ![andyleonard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19b73/32.png) [@andyleonard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andyleonard)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/28 "2013-04-29T03:36:32Z")
A preposition is not a good word to end a sentence with. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/29 "2013-04-29T03:40:48Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Once again, the answer is that you _don’t_ end sentences with prepositions. None of the examples given so far has actually ended a sentence with one. > > What you have seen is the particle of a phrasal verb. Some verbs in English have more than one word: You’re confusing true verbal phrases such as “put up with” with prepositions that are adverbial. Remember, a preposition connects a noun or pronoun with another word, which can be a verb, thus making it an adverbial prepositional phrase. Consider this: _ **He ate with his left hand. He ate with his girlfriend.** _ In neither sentence is “ate with” a verbal phrase. “Ate” is the verb. And “with his left hand” and “with his girlfriend” are prepositional phrases that modify “ate.” And so, in English, when we invert word order for emphasis we might get these perfectly valid sentences: * * * Q: Which hand did he use? A: It was his left hand he ate with. Q: Whom did he dine with? A: It was his girlfriend he ate with.\*\*\* So… there you go. Not verbal phrases but actual prepositional phrases in which inverted word order leaves the preposition dangling, which is perfectly fine. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/30 "2013-04-29T03:53:13Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Particles are almost always words that are also used as prepositions, so people mistake one for another. But few people actually use a construction that actually is a preposition, like > > \*He is going to. > \*She eats with Where is the place he is going to? Are you the person she eats with? Aren’t those sentences valid? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/31 "2013-04-29T04:18:12Z")
**Pulykammell** , this is what I’m talking about in regards to the “rule of thumb.” > [@pravnik](#): > > It’s the sort of thing up with which one should not put. or, “It’s the sort of thing that will not be tolerated.” We can choose different words to convey the same message. I just think following this rule can actually help someone become a better writer. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/32 "2013-04-29T04:27:56Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I just think following this rule can actually help someone become a better writer. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/33 "2013-04-29T04:45:53Z")
I mentioned this to my favourite niece in law soon after she received her Ph.D in English. I did comment that it seems you have to come up with some awkward sentences to avoid it sometimes. She said that it was okay. On the other hand, I mentally cringe when I hear “Where did I put my ink pen at?” ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/34 "2013-04-29T04:49:41Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I mentioned this to my favourite niece in law soon after she received her Ph.D in English. Wait… is she a lawyer or an English major? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/35 "2013-04-29T04:52:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Why? I think it keeps things concise. For example… > [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by this. Instead use, “I’m not sure what you mean.” Also, clarity. In the example I used above, we use the word “tolerate” instead of “things we will not put up with.” It may seem unnecessary and useless, however if you peruse the boards, you will see posters ending their sentences with a preposition on a very consistent basis. It seems lazy. I also think their posts would be more clear and concise if they chose to follow this rule, instead of ignoring it. 🙂 But, I do get your point. It can make things unnecessarily wordy at times. It’s not like I’m totally in the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/36 "2013-04-29T04:55:10Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I mentioned this to my favourite niece in law soon after she received her Ph.D in English. I did comment that it seems you have to come up with some awkward sentences to avoid it sometimes. She said that it was okay. > > On the other hand, I mentally cringe when I hear “Where did I put my ink pen at?” That’s slightly different. It’s ending on a preposition, but it’s a peculiar idiom of its own. The “at” is completely unnecessary there and is an American colloquialism. I have no problem with proscribing against that form in formal writing. But saying something like “Where did this pen come from?” is to be cast aside “From where did this pen come” (or even “Whence did this pen come?”) is useless pedantry and sounds stilted to my ears. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/37 "2013-04-29T05:03:27Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I think it keeps things concise. > > For example… > > Instead use, “I’m not sure what you mean.” Why? In one case you admonish me for not being wordy enough. In the next, I’m being too wordy by adding “by this.” I’m writing in a conversational tone. I’m not at a newspaper where space is at a premium, and the two extra words better convey my voice and the rhythm of my language. > [@](#): > > Also, clarity. In the example I used above, we use the word “tolerate” instead of “things we will not put up with.” I prefer “tolerate” in that sentence, too, but it’s meant to be a joke. Plus the author may prefer the sounds or the diction of the phrase “to put up with” vs “tolerate.” > [@](#): > > It may seem unnecessary and useless, however if you peruse the boards, you will see posters ending their sentences with a preposition on a very consistent basis. It seems lazy. What is lazy about ending on a preposition? This makes no sense to me whatsoever. I’ve given you many citations above from much-loved grammar pedants and style manuals that are not exactly known for “grammatical liberalism” that say it’s perfectly cromulent in English. \*It’s perfectly okay to end a sentence on a preposition in English. That rule is even dumber than the “never split infinitives” horseshit. > [@](#): > > I also think their posts would be more clear and concise if they chose to follow this rule, instead of ignoring it. 🙂 Show me an example board post where a terminal preposition impedes clarity. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/38 "2013-04-29T05:17:26Z")
Incidentally, there’s a fun little history of the origins of [the proscription against preposition dangling](http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2012/02/lexicon_valley_why_we_think_we_can_t_end_a_sentence_with_a_preposition_.html), and it all seems to start with Dryden, with no good explanation from him as to why. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/39 "2013-04-29T05:20:36Z")
Certainly, everything you are saying is valid. If a writer chooses eloquence over conciseness, that is their perogative. Also, I’ll admit that following this rule can actually decrease the level of clarity in some cases. It’s a balancing act and referring to the professionals like you have should take precedence over my opinion. I think it’s just a habit that you can either choose to follow or not. For what it’s worth, I find it helpful. It sort of gives me structure. ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/40 "2013-04-29T05:25:03Z")
Screw you and the horse in on which you rode. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962.md?page=3)