# Ending sentences with a preposition **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 28, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962 "2013-04-28T23:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/41 "2013-04-29T05:28:46Z")
In the example of “where did the pen come from?” It certainly depends on the context, but I think we can phrase this sentence in lots of different ways: Who made this pen? Where was this pen found? Where did you find this pen? What is the origin of this pen? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/42 "2013-04-29T05:34:25Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > Wait… is she a lawyer or an English major? She’s an English major. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/43 "2013-04-29T05:36:17Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s slightly different. It’s ending on a preposition, but it’s a peculiar idiom of its own. The “at” is completely unnecessary there and is an American colloquialism. I have no problem with proscribing against that form in formal writing. But saying something like “Where did this pen come from?” is to be cast aside “From where did this pen come” (or even “Whence did this pen come?”) is useless pedantry and sounds stilted to my ears. I would use “Where is my pen?” ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/44 "2013-04-29T05:37:58Z")
That too. ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/45 "2013-04-29T06:39:00Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > In the example of “where did the pen come from?” > > It certainly depends on the context, but I think we can phrase this sentence in lots of different ways: > > Who made this pen? > > Where was this pen found? > > Where did you find this pen? > > What is the origin of this pen? “Whence cameth this pen” is the correct phrasing IMO … ---
**Author:** ![bchris964](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@bchris964](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bchris964)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/46 "2013-04-29T06:50:05Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I’ve heard before that you shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition. However, I see a lot of that going on here at The Dope and I’m wondering why is it bad? > > Also, I’m not even sure if I understand the concept fully. Feel free to elaborate on the answer as much as you desire. in my view, panaccione, it is just a weird approach to handle the English language. just try to maintain you sentence stream and use proper and organized form of sentence till end instead of worrying it may be ended with any preposition and other terminology, etc. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/47 "2013-04-29T08:13:43Z")
Wherefore didst this pen appeareth on mine desk? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/48 "2013-04-29T10:54:30Z")
[Earlier thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=426974), for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/49 "2013-04-29T11:58:25Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I think it keeps things concise. > > For example… > > Instead use, “I’m not sure what you mean.” > > Also, clarity. In the example I used above, we use the word “tolerate” instead of “things we will not put up with.” > > It may seem unnecessary and useless, however if you peruse the boards, you will see posters ending their sentences with a preposition on a very consistent basis. It seems lazy. I also think their posts would be more clear and concise if they chose to follow this rule, instead of ignoring it. 🙂 > > But, I do get your point. It can make things unnecessarily wordy at times. It’s not like I’m totally in the opposition. You do know that “this” (and in your previous example,“it”), aren’t prepositions, right? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/50 "2013-04-29T12:00:39Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > In the example of “where did the pen come from?” > > It certainly depends on the context, but I think we can phrase this sentence in lots of different ways: > > Who made this pen? > > Where was this pen found? > > Where did you find this pen? > > What is the origin of this pen? But “where did the pen come from” encompasses all those questions, which might be what you want. Your rephrasings are actually different questions. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/51 "2013-04-29T12:50:43Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I would use “Where is my pen?” Yes. That would be the unambiguously correct way of phrasing it. Part of my point is taking exception to “where is my pen at” is not so much the preposition at the end; it’s that it’s redundant and a colloquialism. That particular usage is peculiar and should not be lumped in with the typical examples of ending a sentence with a preposition. “Where are you from?” or “I have no money to buy food with” are standard examples of prepositional stranding, and there is no problem with them as written. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/52 "2013-04-29T13:17:28Z")
One of the [Fumblerules of Grammar](http://dmorgan.web.wesleyan.edu/materials/safire.htm): Don’t use a preposition to end a sentence with. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/53 "2013-04-29T13:25:44Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > On the other hand, I mentally cringe when I hear “Where did I put my ink pen at?” Me too. No one needs to tell us what a pen uses to write, so “ink” is redundant. ---
**Author:** ![FuzzyOgre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@FuzzyOgre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuzzyOgre)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/54 "2013-04-29T13:49:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > My brother at the dinner table once asked for a fork. Somebody asked why he needed a fork. He replied that he needed “something to eat his crab with”. > > Decades later he still can’t live it down as nobody knows exactly what “crab with” is substance wise. > > The fact he was a little grammar nazi back in the day was just icing on the cake. I guess he ate humble crab with pie. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/55 "2013-04-29T14:07:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Me too. No one needs to tell us what a pen uses to write, so “ink” is redundant. You need to say “ink pen” to tell it apart from a pin, for dialects that pronounce both words the same. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/56 "2013-04-29T15:49:17Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > One of the [Fumblerules of Grammar](http://dmorgan.web.wesleyan.edu/materials/safire.htm): > > Don’t use a preposition to end a sentence with. See–I know it’s humor, but that is actually an example of prepositional stranding that I would consider “non-standard” or even “incorrect.” The “with” doesn’t go with anything, and it’s not a sentence I personally would ever think of uttering. It sounds ungrammatical to my ears. But that’s not what most writers and speakers do, in my experience, when stranding prepositions. “Prepositions are words you should never end a sentence with” is more along the lines of typical prepositional stranding. You know, sentences that some English teachers apparently insist must be re-written in the “[preposition] which/whom” form to be “correct” (or otherwise completely re-written.) In other words, some may insist that my example should be written “Prepositions are words with which you should never end a sentence.” That’s not the greatest example, as I’d simply write “You should never end a sentence with a preposition,” but I’m trying to shoehorn something that works into Safire’s silly grammar joke. Another more common example would be a question like “who are you going to prom with?” rather than the stilted “with whom are you going to prom?” that the pedants would insist on. (\<– And I wonder how many would incorrectly flag that a stranded preposition and not a phrasal verb.) ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/57 "2013-04-29T16:02:49Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > It’s the sort of thing up with which one should not put. Diane: \*“Forget the piano. Let me be the instrument you play on.” \* Sam: _“Diane, do you realize you just ended that proposition with a preposition?”_ ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/58 "2013-04-29T16:55:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > See–I know it’s humor, but that is actually an example of prepositional stranding that I would consider “non-standard” or even “incorrect.” By whom? In what context? In ordinary speech? In a post on a message board? On a paper for a class? In a newspaper or magazine? In an academic book? There’s no meaning to “standard” or “non-standard” let alone “correct” without taking the context and the formality of the use into account. And even there, the only standards that anyone recognizes is what good authors would do in that context. There is no outside body that regulates correctness. Good authors - by which I mean the body of writers who produce the standard prose we read in books and magazines and newspapers and the online equivalents - do end sentences with prepositions frequently. If they do so, then who are the better than good writers who can correct them? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/59 "2013-04-29T17:02:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > By whom? In what context? In ordinary speech? In a post on a message board? On a paper for a class? In a newspaper or magazine? In an academic book? You’re preaching to the choir. I’m primarily descriptivist in my approach. But I do think \*that particular construction \*: “Don’t use a preposition to end a sentence with” sounds “off” to my ears and is not a typical example of prepositional stranding that would be made by a native English speaker. I could be wrong. If it is a usual construction, fine. I don’t think most speakers of English would naturally put a “with” there at the end, and I think that is a Safirian construction used to make a silly joke. Remember, I am completely pro-ending a sentence with a preposition. I just don’t think that’s a good example of how one is normally constructed even in off-the-cuff conversational English. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962/60 "2013-04-29T18:30:27Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > You do know that “this” (and in your previous example,“it”), aren’t prepositions, right? No, I didn’t. What are they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-a-preposition/656962.md?page=4)