# Ending sentences with prepositions. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 16, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523 "2003-08-16T02:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/1 "2003-08-16T02:40:51Z")
I know that the modern canon of English says it’s ok to end sentences with prepositions but I still try and avoid it. It looks a bit odd and I’m afraid that someone not hip to the new rules will think I use worse grammar than I already do. Sometimes I just can’t find a good way to work around it though: “I know the game you’re referring to.” sounds much better than “I know the game to which you are referring.” It does look a little odd to have the “to” on the end of the sentence but it sounds a bit better. I can’t think of an example now, but sometimes you’d have to jump through hoops not the put the preposition at the end. How do you englishy people deal with that? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/2 "2003-08-16T02:52:28Z")
These “new rules” as you put it have been part of the most conservative expert’s understanding of English for a century. From the incredibly conservative H. W. Fowler’s _A Dictionary of Modern English Usage_ (1st edition 1926): > [@](#): > > It was once a cherished superstition that prepositions must be kept true to their names and placed before the word they govern in spite of the incurable English instinct for putting them late… > > The fact is that the remarkable freedom enjoyed by English in putting its prepositions late and omitting its relatives is an important element of the flexibility of the language… Those who lay down the universal principle that final prepositions are ‘inelegant’ are unconsciously trying to deprive the English language of a valuable idiomatic resource… > > If the final preposition that has naturally presented itself sounds comfortable, keep it… I call people who still object to splitting infinitives and putting prepositions at the end the “illiterate pedants.” They know everything about English except how it really works. Ignore them. They are idiots. You should never care about what they have to say about the language. If you have to torture a sentence to make it conform to their standards you are indulging in a foolish crime against good writing. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/3 "2003-08-16T02:55:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*I know that the modern canon of English says it’s ok to end sentences with prepositions but I still try and avoid it. \*\* It also says to try to avoid the phrase “try and avoid.” But seriously, where is there a cite that at one time it was improper? I know that it’s well known, but what usage, style, or grammar books actually said that such an ending was improper. Here is a post of mine from another thread earlier this evening, quoting the OED: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=204869](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=204869) Notice that the editors of the OED had no qualms about ending a sentence with a preposition. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/4 "2003-08-16T03:03:38Z")
OK, before anyone else has time: “Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.” (attributed to Winston Churchill, IIRC) **Yale Guy** _(to Harvard Guy, looking around the Harvard campus)_: “Where’s the administration building at?” **Harvard Guy** _(to Yale Guy, with a sneer)_: “At Haaahv’hd, we do not end our sentences with prepositions.” **Yale Guy** _(to Harvard Guy)_: “Okay…Where’s the administration building at, asshole?” * * * It’s not the modern canon; it’s the Victorian canon. The prejudice against this came from bourgeois folks trying to use Latin as the end-all-be-all for correctness and trying to make English follow Latin rules, I believe I remember. English-writing and -speaking folks been ending sentences with prepositions since we done had English. Shakespeare did it. Practically, though, you avoid it if you gotta, as in for papers for folks with preposition-ending-sentences-phobias; sometimes you have to rewrite whole paragraphs to do so. It ain’t pretty. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/5 "2003-08-16T03:05:39Z")
Oops… what I MEANT was, it’s not the modern canon that decreed it’s OK; it’s every canon but the Victorian one. Or some of those darn Victorians, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/6 "2003-08-16T03:24:41Z")
I don’t know to which “canon of English” you’re referring, and I don’t particularly care. I don’t think it sounds or looks right to end a sentence or clause with a preposition, like “to.” But practically speaking, it all depends on context. You hint at this by saying your example “sounds” right. When chatting at the water cooler, “to which you refer” would sound a tad pedantic. (Although if you are a real pedant, e.g. an English professor, it would probably be expected of you.) And in fiction, poetry, and other forms of expressive writing, almost anything goes (although you will generally do better to know the rules before you break them). But I maintain that in formal written English – a report, a memo, an article for general publication – ending with a preposition “sounds” sloppy, and should be avoided. My authority? I’m a professional editor and writer, and I’m never wrong about these things. That is all. ============ On preview, I notice that Harpo above is calling me an illiterate pedantic idiot. I won’t argue the point. While I’m not firmly against split infinitives (my understanding is that the prohibition derives from the fact that it is not possible to split infinitives in Latin, therefore you shouldn’t do it in English – a silly reason for a “rule.”), I think that both they and terminal prepostions should be avoided if one can do so without “torturing the sentence.” Good writing says what it is trying to say without slowing down, confusing, or annoying the reader. A tortured sentence, by definition, fails that test. But in my experience, it is almost never impossible to effectively recast a sentence that ends with a preposition or splits an infinitive. (Sorry, that should be “to recast effectively.”) While I’ve got my rant going, I’d just like to express my dismay with the apparently total supplanting of the phrase “in which” with “where.” As in, “The government issued a report where it stated that…” It should be “…a report IN WHICH it stated…” It’s a report! There is no THERE there!!! ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/7 "2003-08-16T03:28:38Z")
Ok so I was wrong about the timing. Nevertheless, it’s rare to see good writers end sentences with prepositions. Would you guys feel comfortable writing “I know the game you’re referring to.”? ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/8 "2003-08-16T03:31:38Z")
NO! ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/9 "2003-08-16T03:32:52Z")
I agree. I would never end a sentence with but. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/10 "2003-08-16T03:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*Ok so I was wrong about the timing. Nevertheless, it’s rare to see good writers end sentences with prepositions. Would you guys feel comfortable writing “I know the game you’re referring to.”? \*\* Yes, unless I was writing it for one of the textbook my company makes. And all of the editors and copyeditors WITH WHOM I work would agree. We’re a “Fowler is GOD” group. T’aint nuthin wrong with writin like folks talk, 'cept if yer writin fer folks who don’t like such stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/11 "2003-08-16T05:19:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emilyforce \* > “Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.” (attributed to Winston Churchill, IIRC) Right right, I know you weren’t treating this as serious, but I think it should be pointed out that _up_ is not a preposition in the phrase, “something with which I will not put up.” One thing that bugs me about this rule is that you can’t move the object of the preposition to the front of the sentence for emphasis. _Such a rule I cannot live with._ If you fix it to, _With such a rule I cannot live._ it really changes the meaning of the sentence, IMHO. And _I cannot live with such a rule._ sounds much less dramatic. 🙂 As for that joke about Harvard and Yale, that’s stupid. There’re lots of administration buildings at Harvard, not _the_ Administration building. The same goes for libraries. It’s like asking for direction to “the dormitory” or “the gate”. They should change it to, “Where’s Loker Commons at, asshole?” ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/12 "2003-08-16T10:25:36Z")
My favorite sentence of the type being referenced has to do with a little girl objecting to the book her father has selected to read bedtime stories to the little girl, when she says, “Daddy, why did you bring that book that I don’t like you to read stories out of up for?” ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/13 "2003-08-16T12:57:34Z")
Shouldn’t it be, “ **what** did you bring that book that I don’t like you to read stories out of up for?” ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/14 "2003-08-16T12:58:43Z")
Why for would you say that? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/15 "2003-08-16T14:56:35Z")
\<\< Right right, I know you weren’t treating this as serious, but I think it should be pointed out that up is not a preposition in the phrase, “something with which I will not put up.” \>. It’s the with, not the up. “That is something I will not put up with” is the common way of saying. “That is something up with which I will not put” was Churchill’s way of commenting. \<\< “what did you bring that book that I don’t like you to read stories out of up for?”\>\> Better: the father is bringing up the wrong book and the kid says, “What did you bring that book that I don’t like to be read to out of up for?” ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/16 "2003-08-16T15:25:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*\<\< Right right, I know you weren’t treating this as serious, but I think it should be pointed out that up is not a preposition in the phrase, “something with which I will not put up.” \>. > > It’s the with, not the up. “That is something I will not put up with” is the common way of saying. “That is something up with which I will not put” was Churchill’s way of commenting. > \<\< “what did you bring that book that I don’t like you to read stories out of up for?”\>\> > > Better: the father is bringing up the wrong book and the kid says, “What did you bring that book that I don’t like to be read to out of up for?” \*\* Thanks for telling this thing right! I tried to remember that it was more than four at the end. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/17 "2003-08-16T15:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emilyforce \* > \*\*Yes, unless I was writing it for one of the textbook my company makes. And all of the editors and copyeditors WITH WHOM I work would agree. We’re a “Fowler is GOD” group. > > T’aint nuthin wrong with writin like folks talk, 'cept if yer writin fer folks who don’t like such stuff. \*\* So if you don’t think it’s appropriate for formal speech, how would you write that sentence for a textbook? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/18 "2003-08-16T16:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \<\< Right right, I know you weren’t treating this as serious, but I think it should be pointed out that up is not a preposition in the phrase, “something with which I will not put up.” \>. > > It’s the with, not the up. “That is something I will not put up with” is the common way of saying. “That is something up with which I will not put” was Churchill’s way of commenting. It’s both! He moved both the _up_ and the _with_. Here’s the thing. Churchill was making a joke, that if you follow the formal rule, sometimes you get something which sounds dumb. The thing is, though, he didn’t follow the formal rule. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/19 "2003-08-16T16:59:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\*Shouldn’t it be, “ **what** did you bring that book that I don’t like you to read stories out of up for?” \*\* You’re right about what I should have said. What for, and not why for. Sorry 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/20 "2003-08-16T17:03:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*Ok so I was wrong about the timing. Nevertheless, it’s rare to see good writers end sentences with prepositions. Would you guys feel comfortable writing “I know the game you’re referring to.”? \*\* There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this that I can see, in a formal or informal context. And I think you are greatly mistaken with the notion that “it’s rare to see good writers end sentences with prepositions.” Most writers I’ve read do it all the time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523.md?page=2)