# Ending sentences with prepositions. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 16, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523 "2003-08-16T02:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/21 "2003-08-16T17:41:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by don’t ask \* > \*\*I agree. I would never end a sentence with but. \*\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/22 "2003-08-16T18:14:38Z")
Back to Fowler: > [@](#): > > If the ‘preposition’ is in fact the adverbial particle of a phrasal verb, no choice is open to us; it cannot be wrested from its partner. Not even Dryden could have altered _which I will not put up with_ to _up with which I will not put_ And some words from the conservative Theodore M. Bernstein in _The Careful Writer_" > [@](#): > > The end of a sentence is a conspicuous point and therefore can be a strong point. The end of the sentence being quoted [above] is like the last sputter of an engine going dead. > > Sometimes, however, a preposition can itself provide strength at the end of a sentence. … Examples: “He didn’t know what he was getting into”; “I found this tool but I don’t know what it is for.”; “He didn’t know what it was all about.” > > Instances like these are not usual, however. In most sentences ending with prepositions, the stress falls not on the preposition but on the word preceding it. And yet the sentences are still good. Why? Because they are idiomatic and have been constructed that way from Shakespeare [on]… > > [These bad examples imply] the caution that should go forth to the writer: If by trying to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition you have seemed to twist words out of their normal order and have created a pompous-sounding locution, abandon the effort. Indeed, there is no reason to make the effort at all, unless the sentence sound like the final sputter the engine has come to. Like that one. Except under the most formal and unusual circumstances, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with ending a sentence with a preposition, if that is what makes the sentence flow clearly and easily to the eye and ear of the reader. Bad sentences are bad sentences, no matter how they are constructed. I am not against people like **commasense** , who appears to understand the language and tries to work with it, but those who mindlessly apply rules and strictures. They serve no purpose except to confuse poor innocents like **KidCharlemagne** , who seems to be brainwashed by their pernicious nonsense. And textbooks are made to be read. There is no reason to be especially formal in them. Don’t change the sentence at all. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/23 "2003-08-16T23:38:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exapno Mapcase \* > I am not against people like **commasense** , who appears to understand the language and tries to work with it, but those who mindlessly apply rules and strictures. They serve no purpose except to confuse poor innocents like **KidCharlemagne** , who seems to be brainwashed by their pernicious nonsense. > > \*\* I DO appreciate your help but do you always have to backhand me on the way out? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/24 "2003-08-17T02:49:02Z")
Sorry. That wasn’t my intent. You asked a perfectly sound question. I was just venting against the world in general. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/25 "2003-08-17T04:10:49Z")
Sorry I’m late here. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > **So if you don’t think it’s appropriate for formal speech, how would you write that sentence** [“I know the game you’re referring to.”] \*\*for a textbook? \*\* Frankly, in a textbook, we would just plain avoid it by rewriting the surrounding text, if at all possible. “I know that game” would do in a pinch in most contexts. If we absolutely had to stick to the text as written (for instance, in a late-stage proof, where no one had caught this earlier and it would be too expensive to rewrite a lot of text), we _might_ go with “I know the game to which you are referring.” But we go far, far out of our way to avoid such a thing, both because we know the kids hate it, and because almost all of us agree with Fowler and Bernstein that such tortured, pompous sentences are worse than the alternative. And sometimes we just let the prepositions lie where they fall. Contrary to what most people I talk to assume, the choices we make are more often based on market realities than on principles. Most of us are painfully aware that “correctness” in grammar is an artificial construct and a historically late development in English, despite what some English teahcers believe, so we don’t put much stock in such “principles”. I’m possibly more aware of this than many in my field because I’m married to a linguist. ---
**Author:** ![Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moo_the_Magic_Cow)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/26 "2003-08-17T05:53:18Z")
I see the whole preposition ‘rule’ to which you refer as more of a guideline. If it eliminates an awkward sentence, good. If it creates an awkward sentence, it’s not as good. The preposition rule usually falls apart in the presence of phrasal verbs like shut up, put up, whacking off (_see Beavis and Butt-Head Do America_), et cetera. In a lot of areas, you have to destroy the sentence to make it work. I can’t fathom what happens to “I don’t know what you’re talking about” aside from phrasing the question differently. For the most part, just follow common sense. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/27 "2003-08-17T07:22:33Z")
For those who are curious, the original promulgator of this silly rule (and the equally silly rule about splitting infinitives) was Robert Lowth, a British bishop who wrote _A Short Introduction to English Grammar_ in 1762. He was aided and abetted in this foolishness by Lindley Murray who expanded this document in his popular 1794 book, _English Grammar_. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/28 "2003-08-17T09:43:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Moo the Magic Cow \* > The preposition rule usually falls apart in the presence of phrasal verbs like shut up, put up, whacking off (_see Beavis and Butt-Head Do America_), et cetera. In a lot of areas, you have to destroy the sentence to make it work. It’s possible that I’m misunderstanding you, but if not, then here goes: Words **can** have more than one part of speech. The “prepositions” in phrasal verbs like this are really particles; they’re connected to the verb and not the prepositional phrase. In fact, there’s no prepositional phrase at all; it’s a direct object, as in the sentence _She looked up the number_. If you needed it in a subordinate clause like _the number which she looked up_, it is incorrect, both formally and informally, to reword it as _the number up which she looked_. Furthermore, for intransitive phrasal verbs (like _shut up_ and _whack off_) I don’t see how anyone could ever make this mistake. ---
**Author:** ![frookah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@frookah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frookah)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/29 "2003-08-17T09:54:15Z")
Hrm. When teaching English grammar to speakers of other languages, which I do everyday ;), I am often reminded of a comment made by an elder grammarian. A young man was a firm proponent of the use and acceptance of Ebonics as a valid dialect of English. My friend simply stood and told him that, yes, one should endevour to speak in the manner of the educated and respected members of one’s own community. He said, “But dis town ain’t got no smart folks.” She sighed, mentally patted him on the head, told him he’d go far, kicked him outta class. So, should I teach these people how to speak correctly, or appropriately? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/30 "2003-08-17T10:13:28Z")
Based on your friend’s comment as to what one should “endevour” to do, wouldn’t those be the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/31 "2003-08-17T12:15:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*Ok so I was wrong about the timing. Nevertheless, it’s rare to see good writers end sentences with prepositions. Would you guys feel comfortable writing “I know the game you’re referring to.”? \*\* Well thanks a lot for looking at the link I supplied. That’s almost exactly the example that the editors of the OED–which most would say is a rather formal “document”–used. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/32 "2003-08-17T13:32:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker \* > \*\*Well thanks a lot for looking at the link I supplied. That’s almost exactly the example that the editors of the OED–which most would say is a rather formal “document”–used. \*\* I used that example in my OP. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/33 "2003-08-17T13:35:45Z")
It’s amazing that in AP English at a good high school I used to get lambasted for ending sentences with prepostions. Was no one else even recently taught to avoid this? Fricking Mr. Clark. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/34 "2003-08-17T22:42:15Z")
I seem to remember some wag who explained that the kid’s bedroom was on the top floor of a lighthouse, so the question to father became: “What did you bring that book that I don’t like to be read to out of from up around for?” ---
**Author:** ![sundog66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@sundog66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sundog66)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/35 "2003-08-18T01:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Yale Guy (to Harvard Guy, looking around the Harvard campus): “Where’s the administration building at?” > Harvard Guy (to Yale Guy, with a sneer): “At Haaahv’hd, we do not end our sentences with prepositions.” > Yale Guy (to Harvard Guy): “Okay…Where’s the administration building at, asshole?” I always thought a better reponse to the Harvard guy would be, “At Yale, we know that in this case the problem is not that the sentence ends in a preposition, but rather that ‘at’ is superfluous; it’s role is already covered by the word ‘where.’” ---
**Author:** ![E.Thorp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@E.Thorp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E.Thorp)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523/36 "2003-08-18T02:39:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Xema \* > \*\*I seem to remember some wag who explained that the kid’s bedroom was on the top floor of a lighthouse, so the question to father became: “What did you bring that book that I don’t like to be read to out of from up around for?” \*\* One of the alltime great wags, Stephen Fry, has it a book about Australia: “What on earth did you bring a book to read out of about Down Under up for?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-sentences-with-prepositions/195523.md?page=1)