# Energizer, for non-rechargeable lithium batteries **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676 "2009-12-02T05:15:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/21 "2009-12-02T18:40:15Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If lithium is 17ppm, compare that to the much rarer uranium which is 1.8 ppm. Uranium is being produced at a rate of 45,000 tons per year. Lithium is currently at 39,000 tons. If lithium is 10x more common, what explains its production being less than that of uranium? Simply a more established market, and we can expect 450,000 tons of lithium per year in the future? Or is lithium a pain to extract, even if it does represent a larger share of the Earth’s crust? Given that you actually appear to know pretty much absolutely nothing at all about lithium or its production, i’m curious to know what was the basis for your outrage in the OP regarding the use of lithium in these batteries. Were you just pissed that your batteries didn’t last long enough, or that you went out and chose the wrong batteries for your product, and felt the need to project your stupidity elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/22 "2009-12-02T18:46:06Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Less demand for lithium than uranium? Also, when it comes to producing power, uranium goes MUCH MUCH (like much to 10 to 8th power or sumptin) further than lithium, drum banging bunny not withstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/23 "2009-12-02T18:58:03Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > So, it’s Energizer’s fault that you didn’t read the package, eh? That’s neat how that works. Yeah, really. I think the “non-rechargeable” was in “small print” because the standard is putting “rechargeable” in big print. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/24 "2009-12-03T00:06:02Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > Yeah, really. I think the “non-rechargeable” was in “small print” because the standard is putting “rechargeable” in big print. Definitely. And only on the SDMB would we hear someone whingeing about the “waste” of a miniscule amount of a non-precious metal as a result of an error they made. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/25 "2009-12-04T04:57:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Given that you actually appear to know pretty much absolutely nothing at all about lithium or its production, i’m curious to know what was the basis for your outrage in the OP regarding the use of lithium in these batteries. Were you just pissed that your batteries didn’t last long enough, or that you went out and chose the wrong batteries for your product, and felt the need to project your stupidity elsewhere? The real root of my angst is the false media I’ve seen about lithium. As I pointed out before, I’ve seen lithium portrayed as a somewhat rare metal that just can’t be produced in industrial quantities, and therefore sorry folks! We’re just going to have to forget all about this electric car nonsense as a result. The one about Bolivia (I hope to find the link) was especially stark- it made it sound as if this were the only place in the world from which we could acquire lithium (though places [like this](http://www.desertusa.com/mag98/april/owens/owenslake.html) are all over the globe), and that it would be easier to simply invade Iraq and conquer oil than deal with this hassle. But the (shocking!) revelation of mass-market disposable lithium (and the smart helpful folks at the 'dope) exposes this line as bullshit. If it just can’t be had, it would not be disposable. But it is (mass-market) disposable, so I’ve been lied to by the… who? Mass media? Special interests? I’m not exactly sure with _whom_ I’m angry. But whatever the source, it is obviously another manipulative lie intended to obstruct a move toward a more intelligent energy program. And these big-business manipulative lies pretty much always stick in my craw. That, and to project my stupidity 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/26 "2009-12-04T05:00:00Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > Yeah, really. I think the “non-rechargeable” was in “small print” because the standard is putting “rechargeable” in big print. In my defense, the way the display was set up seemed to indicate that these were the ‘top shelf’ rechargeables. Yah ok I’m guilty for not noticing they weren’t. Happy??? ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/27 "2009-12-04T05:06:06Z")
Major bonus points for including George W Bush and big oil in the closing of a rant about poorly engineered consumer batteries. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/28 "2009-12-04T15:17:39Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > And these big-business manipulative lies pretty much always stick in my craw. What big-business manipulative lies? Be specific please. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/29 "2009-12-04T21:49:04Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > What big-business manipulative lies? Be specific please. Did you not read the rest of the post? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/30 "2009-12-05T16:18:10Z")
I think I found the link. **Absoulute** , I hope you will share your comments on the ‘factual’ content of this article. [In Bolivia, Untapped Bounty Meets Nationalism](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/world/americas/03lithium.html) As it turns out, I’m not crazy at all. My memory of this article was (surprisingly) accurate. And my beef with disposable lithium is, I feel, justified. Fucking Energizer :mad: > [@](#): > > Quechua-speaking Indians subsist on the remains of an ancient inland sea by bartering the salt they carry out on llama caravans. Ok, I remembered it as mules, but see, Indians carrying salt out of the mountains on pack animals! I wasn’t dreaming! Shup up, Mhendo 😃 > [@](#): > > “We know that Bolivia can become the Saudi Arabia of lithium,” said Francisco Quisbert, 64, the leader of Frutcas, a group of salt gatherers and quinoa farmers on the edge of Salar de Uyuni, the world’s largest salt flat. “We are poor, but we are not stupid peasants. > [@](#): > > almost half of the world’s lithium, the mineral needed to power the vehicles, is found here in Bolivia — a country that may not be willing to surrender it so easily. > [@](#): > > At the La Paz headquarters of Comibol, the state agency that oversees mining projects, Mr. Morales’s vision of combining socialism with advocacy for Bolivia’s Indians is prominently on display. Copies of Cambio, a new state-controlled daily newspaper, are available in the lobby, while posters of Che Guevara, the leftist icon killed in Bolivia in 1967, appear at the entrance to Comibol’s offices. > [@](#): > > “The previous imperialist model of exploitation of our natural resources will never be repeated in Bolivia,” said Saúl Villegas, head of a division in Comibol that oversees lithium extraction. “Maybe there could be the possibility of foreigners accepted as minority partners, or better yet, as our clients.” > [@](#): > > “Of course, lithium is the mineral that will lead us to the post-petroleum era,” Mr. Castro said. “But in order to go down that road, we must raise the revolutionary consciousness of our people, starting on the floor of this very factory.” See? Bolivia’s lithium is presented as guarded by angry natives who think you are calling them stupid. Attempts to bargain for it will be met with a channeling of the revolutionary spirit of Che Guevara against the ‘imperialist model of exploitation’. Basically, it is suggested that a move toward ev’s would be a move toward supporting Socialism. Literally! > [@](#): > > As Bolivia ponders how to tap its lithium, nations with smaller reserves are stepping up. China has emerged as a top lithium producer, tapping reserves found in a Tibetan salt flat. Again, my memory is (thankfully) not shot. There’s Bolivia, full of angry Socialist natives, and then there is China. Guess we better start looking into natural-gas powered fuel cells, no? All hail petro-chemicals! :mad: > [@](#): > > The United States Geological Survey says 5.4 million tons of lithium could potentially be extracted in Bolivia, compared with 3 million in Chile, 1.1 million in China and just 410,000 in the United States. Independent geologists estimate that Bolivia might have even more lithium at Uyuni and its other salt deserts, though high altitudes and the quality of the reserves could make access to the mineral difficult. > [@](#): > > But geologists and economists are fiercely debating whether the lithium reserves outside of Bolivia are enough to meet the climbing global demand. Keith Evans, a California-based geologist, argues that accessible lithium resources outside Bolivia are significantly larger than estimated by the United States Geological Survey. So what’s the straight dope here? Are the numbers factual? Can the US procure enough lithium to sustain an ev industry? And, should we be throwing the shit away??? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/31 "2009-12-05T20:40:52Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > …Do these people not understand that lithium is a rare earth metal, and that it is severely uncool to create a process that moves it into landfills after a single use? > > …And my beef with disposable lithium is, I feel, justified. Fucking Energizer :mad: > > …And, should we be throwing the shit away??? As it has been noted, lithium is neither a rare earth metal nor particularly rare. This is not to say, however, that there are not potentially harmful environmental consequences to increased lithium mining and in its subsequent disposal as solid waste. Just because a consumer item is “disposable” does not mean that it can’t be recycled. Ideally, non-rechargeable lithium batteries would be recycled, not thrown into the trash. For example, here’s one company that recycles all types of batteries, including non-rechargeable lithium batteries: [http://www.toxco.com/aboutrecycle.html](http://www.toxco.com/aboutrecycle.html) Here’s one way for you to actually recycle batteries, if battery recycling is not currently available where you live: > **[Big Green Box to WeRecycle Battery Box | Cirba Solutions](https://www.cirbasolutions.com/big-green-box-to-werecycle-battery-box/)** > > Products Big Green Box is Now WeRecycle Battery Box We are thrilled to share that we have unveiled our new Cirba Solutions WeRecycle Battery Box, previously ... You could try to channel your anger away from Energizer and toward actually doing something good for the environment. Recycle your used batteries! ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/32 "2009-12-05T20:46:32Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > So what’s the straight dope here? Are the numbers factual? Can the US procure enough lithium to sustain an ev industry? > And, should we be throwing the shit away??? Bah… Soon, we will “find out” that the Bolivians are trying to bioengineer llama pox, a WMD. All the other nations of the world will agree and even have proof of this themselves. The UN will draft a resolution. Before you know it, we gotts all the lithium we need. And keep an eye out on Ebay for great deals on Bolivian antiquities. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/33 "2009-12-05T22:24:34Z")
> [@robby](#): > > As it has been noted, lithium is neither a rare earth metal nor particularly rare. Right. I took note. People really do learn on the 'dope! > [@](#): > > Just because a consumer item is “disposable” does not mean that it can’t be recycled. Ideally, non-rechargeable lithium batteries would be recycled, not thrown into the trash. > > For example, here’s one company that recycles all types of batteries, including non-rechargeable lithium batteries: > [http://www.toxco.com/aboutrecycle.html](http://www.toxco.com/aboutrecycle.html) > > Here’s one way for you to actually recycle batteries, if battery recycling is not currently available where you live: > [http://www.biggreenbox.com/](http://www.biggreenbox.com/) > > You could try to channel your anger away from Energizer and toward actually doing something good for the environment. Recycle your used batteries! Thanks for the links 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/34 "2009-12-05T22:38:55Z")
To make **Try2B Comprehensive** feel better - there’s an ancient digital camera I sometimes use that takes 4 rechargeable AA batteries. I took some pictures with it on a recent trip and noticed that it only lasted for about 10 pictures with a full charge before I started getting a low battery flashing indicator on the camera. What could possibly be the reason? Might it be that I bought the batteries with the camera back in '97 and they’re not holding a charge quite as well as they used to? How bizarre - don’t rechargeable batteries last forever? I guess not. Anyway I just bought new ones which did not explode when I hooked them up to my equally prehistoric battery charger, so all is well for now. Maybe they will last a ways longer, even if the charger is less than state-of-the-art. Another thought - if all Dopers used lithium batteries in their electronics, would there be enough absorbance of this rare mineral to reduce Doper incidence of bipolar syndrome? If we could reduce the number of thread meltdowns, it’d make up for depleting the earth’s crust of lithium prematurely. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/35 "2009-12-05T22:55:03Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’m no battery expert, but i was under the impression that non-rechargeable lithium batteries are not at all uncommon. I’m pretty sure i have one in my watch. Conversely, are rechargeable lithium AA batteries at all common? I don’t think I’ve ever seen one. Since I first saw lithium AAs on the market in the mid-90s, they’ve always been of the non-rechargeable type. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676/36 "2009-12-06T20:03:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Conversely, are rechargeable lithium AA batteries at all common? I don’t think I’ve ever seen one. Since I first saw lithium AAs on the market in the mid-90s, they’ve always been of the non-rechargeable type. I’ve never seen em, but maybe I’ve missed something. If you want rechargeable AA or AAA’s its very typically going to be Nickel Metal Hydride. Rechargeable “lithiums” are usually actually “lithium ion”. And there appears to be something about lithium ion construction that DOES NOT lend itself to a cylindrical construction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/energizer-for-non-rechargeable-lithium-batteries/519676.md?page=1)