Enforceability of subjective traffic laws

I would go ahead and fight it. If the cop is honest about where he was positioned and what he was able to see, then that should be all the reasonable doubt you need.

I also think you should copy an overhead satellite map of the intersection and show the incident as you recall it. Show where the cop was, and other cars that might have blocked his view. Make the exhibit as large as you can afford to do and put it on posterboard so the judge can visualize what you are telling him.

But be prepared to have your testimony dismissed out of hand, lose and be frustrated. Cops are almost always given the benefit of the doubt. But, you also may end up with a lower fine and no points. I’d say it’s worth the gamble.

Agree with Orwell. Now that we (finally) have all the facts you’ve got a decent shot assuming the local court system is not simply a revenue generator for the city council. Some are; most aren’t.

Thanks. My defense rests on the timing of the yellow cycle, the design of the intersection, my speed–along with prevailing speed of traffic–and safe stopping distance as noted in the state driver’s manual. I contend that it actually possible for the officer to have noted that his light had turned green while my car was obstructing the lane, but due to the timing of the light and design of the roadway, it is simultaneous possible that a vehicle can legally enter the intersection to avoid an unsafe and illegal stopping maneuver at a reasonable rate of speed, but not clear the offset lanes of traffic from the side street. IOW, the officer is factual in his statement, but did not have enough information to assess the legality of my maneuver.

In any case, here’s the intersection in question: https://uploadpie.com/QhYUR5

At this point, I think the question has been answered factually as best as it can be and we’re now into IMHO territory. If a moderator wants to move it accordingly, I would not object.

It sets up an affirmative defense. I went through the light but it’s allowed because of the provision in the statute. What is impossible to tell from a dry reading of the statute is how it has been interpreted in court before. Precedents can be hard to find without a law office behind you, especially with traffic codes.

I know you are absolutely sure of what you saw. I’ve seen people sure that they were right who were dead wrong.

Yes be prepared to bring whatever you think you need. You are acting as the lawyer. Nothing is going to be provided for you. If you don’t have what you need it’s doubtful they will grant a continuance on a minor traffic matter.

That is a HUGE intersection. Can you indicate what lane you were in, how you proceeded and where the police car was?

And as to your last post, did the officer rely on when he thought your light should have turned yellow and red, or was he able to observe when your light changed through its cycle? At intersections I am very familiar with, the timing of the lights from different directions can vary depending on traffic placement and flow.

Good point. Not sure if I have a solution to this.

That’s true, but how wrong? The driver’s manual indicates that it a vehicle traveling 20mph has a stopping distance of 69 feet. That’s a very wide margin for error, wouldn’t you say?

It’s traffic court so I expect the judge is used to seeing laymen representing themselves. That could work in my favor if I am well-prepared. I’m thinking 27 8x10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was ought to do it.

Yeah, imagine what it’s like to cross it on foot or by bike. It’s a massive clusterfuck with a high rate of accidents. I travel through it daily by various modes, in various conditions and I’m hyper-aware when doing so. I was in the left turn lane of the smaller road (categorized as a major collector) at the southeast section of the intersection turning left onto what is considered the southbound major arterial/state route.

The officer, whom I did not notice at the intersection, indicated that he was in the offset outside right turn lane also turning onto the southbound major arterial. He stated that there was at least one car in front of him that had to stop to allow me to pass, but I don’t know exactly how far back he was. I had a traffic signal with an arrow that is independent of the circular signals for traffic continuing on the collector.

Since he was across the major arterial, I can’t see any way that he could have visualized the light cycles that were facing me. He also indicated that he “counts yellows” when I queried as to how long the relevant yellow light cycle was and estimated it to be 4-5 seconds. I think it will be helpful to my case to obtain the facts of the light cycle from the traffic division: how the cycle is controlled (fixed time/dynamic; I’m pretty sure it’s fixed) and timed, whether there is green delay after yellow expires, and if the signal is equipped with a reverse side red indicator.

The path of a left turning car from that lane is roughly 170 feet from the outside line of the crosswalk before it clears the right-of-way of an opposite right-turning vehicle on the same road. Add another 69 feet for stopping distance of a car travelling 20 mph and a car must travel roughly 239 feet to clear the right-of-way of those two right turning lanes. At 29.3333 ft/second, that’s over 8 seconds. If he is correct in his estimation of the timing of the yellow, that’s a huge margin for my location at the point the light actually turned yellow to have continued legally through the intersection and still obstructed the right-of-way of a vehicle in front of him.

Nah, that only works for littering citations, and then only if the judge doesn’t have a dog.

And yet, you’ve morphed the conversation (and this was true before my response) into a very specific discussion of this incident. Which, whether you like it or not, is requesting legal advice. Hence, my response. Good Luck.:rolleyes:

Even though the OP says they don’t want legal advice, they really do. Also, this is a real-life personal case. So, off to IMHO.

samclem, moderator General Questions.

Well, no I’m not seeking legal advice. I’m feeling relatively confident of my assessment. Though if I’m being honest, I do welcome different points of view that may help me decide the best way to approach my defense and am willing to share the particulars of my case. As such, I offered specific details of my situation as a response to assumptions and questions about it. Any and all “legal advice” is unsolicited and I don’t care if contributors have legal training or have had a similar experience. There are plenty of attorneys who offer free consultations if I feel I need access to resources beyond what I can get.

Ergo, I have no objection to this move.

That said (again), I was actually interested in discussing subjective elements to statutes. As I noted previously, I think jtur88’s post addressed exactly that quite well without addressing the specifics of my case. It doesn’t look like anyone else has anything else to contribute to the general question I asked in the first sentence of my OP. Which is fine. Sometimes the simplest of answers is all that is necessary.

Here’s my 87¢ worth …

I suggest just a couple 24"x36" drawings … judges like those in general … use the picture above and draw it out simply and add all the cars …

I’d say to make sure in your defense to state that you were aware of the “stagnant green” and was conscience of it as you approached … and that you were past the point you felt you could stop safely if the light turned yellow … so the judge believes you knew the law at the time and had reason to enter the intersection as you did … and this reason was prudent … since sliding into the intersection with four locked tires was imprudent …

“The cop couldn’t see me do this” is weak especially since the cop just testified under oath he did … you’ve got the 24"x36" diagrams … show the judge why the cop’s view was obstructed and maybe the judge will allow a bit of reasonable doubt …

Dress nice and don’t bring the kids … “yes, sir”,“no, sir” … and thank the judge afterward, win or lose … and thank the cop too … I know that intersection (I think) and that cop’s gonna be watching for you now …

And say “police officer” in court, not cop …

Thanks! I was thinking of blowing up the image of the intersection. I can’t necessarily add all the cars and be accurate though because I couldn’t say how many cars were in front of me, although I can say that I started out far enough back behind a long line of vehicles that I, and everyone else, could reasonably accelerate to 20 mph. Using Google Earth I can take measurements of the intersection and estimate travel time through the intersection.

Until I obtain the camera footage and audio from his vehicle and uniform, I can’t say for sure where he actually was during my passage through the intersection. I can only estimate based on what he told me. Given my (and his) assumptions about the timing are accurate, I don’t have to dispute his testimony about obstructing his right-of-way, but should he testify that he could estimate my speed and position at the onset of the yellow arrow, I can demonstrate his view of the lane I was in at that time of day (very busy) with video stills. I already know what the visibility is from the lane he stated he was in; I was there today. As you can imagine, it’s not spectacular.

All your other advice about how to comport oneself in court is well received. You are absolutely right, of course. Thanks for your input.

*Anything *is possible…

Hope your day in court goes well.

Wanted to add an update to this post.

I went to court and prevailed. The officer who cited me did show up in court with video that he opted not to use because due to his position didn’t show the “violation” and drew a crude sketch of intersection on the dry erase board.

I represented myself, opted not to pay the police department for copies of the video and audio of the incident, but with printouts of Google Earth image of the intersection, a pages of the Oregon Driver’s manual that indicate appropriate driver behavior at a yellow arrow and stopping distances.

I began my defense by citing the statute that permits cautious progression through a yellow arrow in the event it is not safe to stop before entering the intersection which includes the crosswalk. I established my location and estimated speed approaching the intersection. I then presented the driver’s manual evidence to indicate on the image where a vehicle must be located to successfully and safely stop before entering the intersection. I established the distances between this point and the point at which the offset lanes that the officer was in entered the highway and, using math, established the time required to completely clear the intersection, which was in excess of the timing of the yellow to which the officer stipulated. I argued that I entered the intersection on a yellow safely and legally and that the officer’s light turned green before I had cleared their path could both be true and that no laws were broken.

The judge countered my argument by stating that the exception to proceed in the statute did not apply to this incident because I created a hazard for the driver in the lane next to the officer who he testified had started to accelerate for the green and had to stop suddenly to avoid hitting me as I came past the offset intersection, ergo my maneuver was not safe. I countered that that is a result of the size of the intersection and timing of the light and that I did not create that hazard, rather I avoided the hazard of being rear-ended by suddenly stopping for a yellow light and violating the statute by ending up stopped in the intersection.

The judge then asked me whether I was past the crosswalk line or behind the line when the light turned yellow. I indicated that I could not be sure, but that I was very certain that I was already beyond the point in which I judged that I could safely stop before the intersection with a line of cars also going 20mph behind me. When she asked for specifics, I indicated that I did not want to give false testimony by attempting to remember my exact position when I had no reason at the time to take note of it as opposed to a general millisecond “Can I stop safely?” assessment.

The judge then presented a supposition that I had, like so many other drivers, sped up to make the light because I did not want to wait through another cycle. I countered that notion by stating that there was no evidence that I did that and further, as a usual cycle commuter who is currently driving because my route to work on this busy highway is under construction, and I acutely understand how hazardous and impulsive driving can put vulnerable users at high risk that I drive with additional caution than one might generally characterize in full-time drivers.

It was at this point that the judge dismissed me and ruled that it was not proven that I violated the traffic control statute and that she was swayed by my testimony as a cautious driver. The officer was not happy and indicated that the light timing is fine because he “goes through it all the time.” I will be filing a complaint with the city asking them to assess the safety of the timing citing this incident as evidence that the timing is too short.

Thanks for the input from everyone who participated.

It’s obvious that you weren’t speeding when you entered the intersection because it took you so long to get through it after the light changed.

Well done, nice to see your preparation was rewarded.

Dennis

Congratulations. You beat the odds.

Congratulations. Well done. And thanks for updating us all; even the doubting Thomases such as myself.

That’s certainly not true in my state.

In my state, Virginia, traffic offenses are classified as either traffic infractions or misdemeanors. Infractions are treated as misdemeanors for arrest purposes and most trial procedural purposes, but not for punishment purposes. Misdemeanors are criminal violations which can be tried in the same way as other criminal cases. In all cases, the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt.