# Enforcing Leaving the State for an Abortion, Other Post-Roe Abortion Questions
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Tags:** roe\_vs\_wade\_abortion
**Created:** [May 6, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068 "2022-05-06T13:30:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/1 "2022-05-06T13:30:05Z")
So some states are planning to enact laws that make it a crime to leave the state for an abortion. I don’t see how they can enforce that: short of parking cops at the border and then being on the lookout for women of childbearing age. And even then, any woman who knows her rights will simply clam up when Johnny Law starts asking questions.
Also, they’re somehow going to try to ban the receipt of abortion pills through the mail. Again, how are they going to enforce that? The USPS isn’t going to have the time, money, or wherewithal to inspect every package that looks like it might come from a pharmacy, then destroy (or whatever) such packages headed to Missouri but go ahead and process the ones headed to Illinois.
Am I missing something here?
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/2 "2022-05-06T13:39:35Z")
edit: I belatedly realized this is FQ, so new answer.
Laws like this will be extremely difficult to enforce, but they will provide mechanisms by which to more severely punish people who do get caught.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/3 "2022-05-06T13:39:38Z")
They won’t be able to enforce it in 100% of cases or probably even 1% of cases, but just like any other hard-to-enforce law it will be a tool they can use against people who are _already_ under the microscope.
For instance, if a woman goes to the hospital because she is bleeding severely, and because she wants the most accurate medical help possible she admits that she took mifepristone that she ordered online, the doctor may well be required to report that to child protective services because the woman admitted (in the eyes of a law defining personhood as beginning at fertilization) to abusing a child.
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### Author:  [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/4 "2022-05-06T13:49:48Z")
It’s just terrorism. Making women fearful of reprisal is the only point.
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### Author:  [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/5 "2022-05-06T13:53:32Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#):
>
> Also, they’re somehow going to try to ban the receipt of abortion pills through the mail. Again, how are they going to enforce that? The USPS isn’t going to have the time, money, or wherewithal to inspect every package that looks like it might come from a pharmacy, then destroy (or whatever) such packages headed to Missouri but go ahead and process the ones headed to Illinois.
I would need to see the proposed laws that you say states have introduced regarding leaving the state to have a comment on that part.
But on this part, the regulation of drug prescribing and dispensing through the mail or internet is a standard part of both state and federal law. This is most commonly seen in the context of controlled substances – the Ryan Haight Act of 2008 was all about regulating internet prescribing and pharmacies; there are all sorts of issue raised by the rise of telehealth providers.
Enforcement (as with controlled substances) would presumably be against the prescribing physicians and dispensing pharmacies. Law enforcement isn’t going to search every package on the off hand chance that it contains a particular medication; it’s going to investigate the pharmacy itself (and take appropriate action).
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### Author:  [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/6 "2022-05-06T13:55:38Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#):
>
> So some states are planning to enact laws that make it a crime to leave the state for an abortion.
I don’t see how this can be legal. Can they make it illegal to leave the state to smoke pot in a state where it’s legal?
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### Author:  [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/7 "2022-05-06T14:00:27Z")
The widely cited example of such legislation in Missouri (which is still under consideration in the legislature and not yet signed into law) would copy the Texas template by allowing private citizens to sue anyone who assists a Missouri resident in obtaining an abortion out of state. This would apply to anyone even tangentially involved – e.g. the secretary who booked the appointment, the marketer who runs an ad for the clinic, etc.
As with the Texas legislation, the goal is to make anyone involved in facilitating an abortion have to weigh the potential for ruinous litigation (which, even if they win, would bankrupt most people) against assisting the woman.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/8 "2022-05-06T14:11:31Z")
> [@needscoffee](#):
>
> I don’t see how this can be legal. Can they make it illegal to leave the state to smoke pot in a state where it’s legal?
I think the broad answer is “we don’t know yet.” **Tired\_and\_Cranky** had a great post in the recent thread about this same topic:
> [@Whats the legality of prosecuting someone for doing something that is illegal in their home state, but legal in another state](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-legality-of-prosecuting-someone-for-doing-something-that-is-illegal-in-their-home-state-but-legal-in-another-state/963357/229):
>
> But the question has moved to the thornier issue of whether a state could prohibit conspiracy within a state to procure an abortion that is legal in another state. I have no doubt the Supreme Court of 1975 would have said that interfered with a person’s fundamental right to travel to another state and to benefit while in that state from the privileges and immunities granted to that states’ citizens. Today’s court? Fat chance.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/9 "2022-05-06T14:21:32Z")
I should point out that it’s [**already** entirely possible](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/22/abortion-pregnancy-law-prosecute-trump) for a woman to be charged for using abortion pills that she received via the mail. It’s not some post-_Roe_ hypothetical. It’s already happening and it’s been happening for a while.
> All told, in the United States, a woman who attempts to induce her own abortion may potentially be running afoul of any one of 40 different laws – including those against child abuse, or drug possession, or practicing medicine without a license – according to the Self-Induced Abortion (SIA) Legal Team, a project associated with Berkeley Law. And this is not settled law. Several times, after a woman has been jailed and prosecuted, a court has ruled that the law under which she was charged didn’t apply to women who attempt their own abortions.
>
> Last year, Georgia prosecutors attempted to charge Kenlissa Jones with attempted murder after authorities claimed that Jones used abortion drugs to self-induce a miscarriage. Arkansas prosecutors charged a 37-year-old named Anne Bynum for allegedly using the same pills. The best-known of these cases even unfolded in Vice-President-elect Mike Pence’s backyard: Purvi Patel, an Indiana woman, apparently used abortion drugs she had obtained over the internet to try to end her pregnancy in its second trimester. Patel was sentenced to 20 years in prison until an appeals court reduced her sentence.
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### Author:  [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/10 "2022-05-06T14:30:54Z")
Maybe women will be required to take pregnancy tests upon leaving and re-entering the state. Or maybe they’ll just have pregnancy sniffing dogs.
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### Author:  [@bodangus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bodangus)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/11 "2022-05-06T14:31:13Z")
A large network of word-of-mouth referrals might go a long way towards women getting the care they need.
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### Author:  [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/12 "2022-05-06T14:31:18Z")
> [@Falchion](#):
>
> I would need to see the proposed laws that you say states have introduced regarding leaving the state to have a comment on that part.
> **[Missouri House passes anti-abortion bill further tightening restrictions on...](https://www.stlpr.org/government-politics-issues/2022-04-06/missouri-house-passes-anti-abortion-bill-further-tightening-restrictions-on-providers)**
>
> The measure also increases the penalty for illegally distributing abortion-inducing drugs to a felony.
The article doesn’t mention the pill aspect, but I can assure you Missouri’s legislature will write a law about it.
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### Author:  [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/13 "2022-05-06T14:35:54Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#):
>
> The article doesn’t mention the pill aspect, but I can assure you Missouri’s legislature will write a law about it.
I dislike when news articles fail to link to the text of a law when discussing it. But according to the article, this does not appear to be a bill that “make[s] it a crime to leave the state for an abortion.”
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/14 "2022-05-06T14:38:20Z")
According to the article, that was in an earlier draft, but was stripped out:
> One provision that did not make it onto the bill was an amendment that criminalized the act of helping someone receive an abortion, even if the abortion itself is performed outside of Missouri.
There was a recent long thread on exactly that topic, and my impression is that we don’t know if it would work or whether it would be constitutional, and it’s almost the first of its kind, but not quite.
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### Author:  [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/15 "2022-05-06T14:54:40Z")
That’s still not really what the OP describes. That would appear to create liability (but not for the person leaving the state to obtain an abortion) for engaging in conduct in State A for a crime that is completed in State B.
I don’t know if it would be constitutional (as I recall from that other thread we were promised a comprehensive body of law regarding alcohol regulation that would provide instruction, but I don’t recall if it was ever provided). Ordinarily, if the crime is a crime in both State A and B, it’s obvious that such a law would be fine. But I’m not even sure that “leaving the state” is conduct _in_ State A. And I don’t really know how it works if the act is not a crime in State B (I think that State A could not prosecute for conduct that took place entirely in State B, without some nexus to State A).
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/16 "2022-05-06T14:58:47Z")
What I think what the conclusion was:
1. It would be fairly unprecedented
2. The crime that might work in state A would be conspiracy to get an abortion, which would be illegal in state A regardless of the status of abortion in state B
3. No one knows if it would be constitutional
4. My opinion: this court would find it to be constitutional
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/17 "2022-05-06T14:59:34Z")
Here’s a hypothetical scenario where a woman might be prosecuted for leaving the state:
A woman is beaten black and blue by her husband. As she’s panicking about what to do with her life, she realizes it’s been six weeks since her period. She takes a pregnancy test. _Fuck._ She wanted to have a baby, but not any more, not with _him_. She Googles to find where the nearest abortion clinic is. _That_ far away? Goddamn, that’s going to be a three-day trip with the mandatory waiting period. She doesn’t have her own bank account yet, so she takes her emergency stash of cash and asks a trusted friend to make her a hotel reservation.
Her enraged husband watches as his wife’s phone, still on the family plan, speeds down the highway and eventually pulls into the Planned Parenthood clinic 400 miles away. He sees red. She’s killing _his_ kid? No way will he stand for that.
He’s waiting in the driveway when she gets back. The neighbors have been hearing them yelling for a few weeks, but tonight the sounds are different; she’s not just enraged, she’s _terrified_. They call the police, he’s taken away in cuffs. She’s relieved for the first time in weeks. When he’s being interrogated, he says “she killed our kid.” The detective asks for details. Hot damn, this just went from a boring old domestic violence case to a _murder_ case. That’s the kind of case that gets you _promoted_.
Subpoenas are issued for the woman’s text messages, search history, and geolocation data. Combined, that information conclusively proves where she went, when she went, and why, and that she conspired with someone else in the state to make preparations for it. The woman and her friend are indicted for conspiracy to commit murder, as the state’s newly-enacted law defines personhood as beginning at the moment of fertilization. There’s nothing much the public defender can do; he assures the women that fifteen years is actually a really good deal for this charge.
Her husband gets a $150 fine for disorderly conduct and returns to his job as a deputy sheriff. It’d be wrong to punish a good Christian man who did what any father would do.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/18 "2022-05-06T15:00:03Z")
I’ve read that in at least one state’s law the crime is conspiring (in the state) to leave the state to obtain an abortion. Why not just have a lie ready. “I left state X to visit my friend in state Y. While visiting, I discovered I was pregnant, so I had the pregnancy terminated.”
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### Author:  [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/19 "2022-05-06T15:04:52Z")
> [@kayaker](#):
>
> Why not just have a lie ready. “I left state X to visit my friend in state Y. While visiting, I discovered I was pregnant, so I had the pregnancy terminated.”
Or just don’t say anything at all. The 5th Amendment is there for a reason. DNTTTP
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### Author:  [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enforcing-leaving-the-state-for-an-abortion-other-post-roe-abortion-questions/964068/20 "2022-05-06T15:10:28Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> What I think what the conclusion was:
>
> 1. It would be fairly unprecedented
> 2. The crime that might work in state A would be conspiracy to get an abortion, which would be illegal in state A regardless of the status of abortion in state B
> 3. No one knows if it would be constitutional
> 4. My opinion: this court would find it to be constitutional
I agree with, at least, points 1 through 3. 2 is the real question.
I think it’s pretty clear that State A can prosecute for conspiracy to commit a crime in State B, where the thing is a crime in both states.
I don’t think there’s really a lot of relevant examples here. I was actually hopeful about the alcohol laws, because states do have different laws and I can imagine a state trying to regulate its citizens going to other states on that subject.
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