# Engineer\_comp\_geek, are you \*aware\* how racist this moderation sounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 12, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129 "2021-06-12T16:53:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/62 "2021-06-13T12:55:39Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > They looked pretty bad to me. If someone says that people “don’t matter much”, that can be intended as “don’t matter much to broader society, which is bad” or it can mean “don’t matter much to me personally” which is callous and dehumanizing and an awful thing to say. People who are “outcasts” are those who are cast out of society. That word, by itself, implies nothing about the “agency” of those cast out. Innocents can be cast out. They can become outcasts. People who are “forgotten” can be forgotten by broader society – which is bad – even if (of course) not forgotten by their families. It isn’t good or right when broader society forgets, or doesn’t care. That’s actually a huge part of the problem. I’m not a mind-reader. I don’t know for certain that any of these more charitable readings were what was originally intended. But there’s no stretch for any of them, and it’s not especially helpful to jump immediately to the worst possible interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/63 "2021-06-13T13:23:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And it’s an extremely charitable characterization of the mod note - would you like my _un_ charitable read, which starts with “Just shut up, Angry Brown Man…” and gets worse from there? That’s what ATMB is for, after all. That said, I guess I’m a little confused as to what you want the rules of the SDMB to be. Which, of course, might merit a detailed ATMB thread of its own where you elucidate what rules you think should be added/changed/removed, and which IMHO would be an interesting discussion. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/64 "2021-06-13T13:33:51Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > People who are “outcasts” are those who are cast out of society. As has been pointed out, they were not outcasts. They were stolen. The post you are defending, and the one you’ve just produced, are written as if the only society that matters was the one that took the children, and had taken the territory, by force of arms. It was not, and despite its determined efforts is not, the only society involved in this mess, and most definitely should not be discussed here as if it’s the only one that matters. To do so is an insult to everyone else involved. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/65 "2021-06-13T13:48:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > As has been pointed out, they were not outcasts. They were stolen. Those are not mutually contradictory. Stealing them is casting them out from where they were, where they belonged. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The post you are defending, and the one you’ve just produced, are written as if the only society that matters was the one that took the children, and had taken the territory, by force of arms. Patently false. Saying that broader society has forgotten them is not anywhere close, not even in the same universe, as saying that that broader society is the only society that matters, or the only perspective that matters. I’m not a mind-reader, and I don’t know what the other poster actually meant. But your reaction to my words has been outright falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/66 "2021-06-13T13:54:59Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Stealing them is casting them out from where they were, where they belonged. That is not remotely any meaning I have ever seen, or can reasonably construe, for “outcasts”. > [@Hellestal](#): > > Saying that broader society has forgotten them is not anywhere close, not even in the same universe, as saying that that broader society is the only society that matters, or the only perspective that matters. Saying that they were outcasts is not the same thing as saying that broader society forgot them, or wants to forget what it did to them. If you’re going to use the word in an idiosyncratic sense, don’t be surprised if other people take it to mean what it usually means. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/67 "2021-06-13T14:19:20Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The post you are defending, and the one you’ve just produced, are written as if the only society that matters was the one that took the children, and had taken the territory, by force of arms. Wait, are you saying Canada WASN’T taken by force of arms? I mean, it basically was. Even though much of it was ceded through treaty, the reality is those treaties were highly one-sided in large part because one side was a thousand times more capable of force. The meaning of “Forgotten” and “outcast” in that context certainly struck me as being in the sense of “persons whose welfare are extremely neglected and disregarded by the powerful.” If I were to tell you that the homeless are “forgotten,” surely you would not take that to mean that their existence has literally escaped the memory of people who loved those individuals? Isn’t it clear that means the meaning in the first sentence of this paragraph? I thought that was a fairly common usage of that word. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/68 "2021-06-13T14:27:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Wait, are you saying Canada WASN’T taken by force of arms? I mean, it basically was. No, I’m saying that it was. I don’t see how you’re getting any other interpretation from “had taken the territory by force of arms.” > [@RickJay](#): > > The meaning of “Forgotten” and “outcast” in that context certainly struck me as being in the sense of “persons whose welfare are extremely neglected and disregarded by the powerful.” If I were to tell you that the homeless are “forgotten,” surely you would not take that to mean that their existence has literally escaped the memory of people who loved those individuals? It isn’t only a matter of individual families. It’s a matter of the entire society they were stolen from – as part of a deliberate and explicit attempt to destroy that society. ETA: And even in the context of individual families: I’ve never seen a kidnap victim referred to as an “outcast”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/69 "2021-06-13T14:27:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > A trace of irritation is routinely allowed. Not, apparently, for **Banquet\_Bear**. There’s no way you can characterize his posts in the ATMB thread as “really pissed”. He was, in fact, in remarkable control of his temper, given the provocations he was presented with there. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > As several have pointed out, this is a pretty hot-botton issue, and not just for indigenous people But do you allow that it might be _more_ so for indigenous people, especially in the face of overt genocide denialism? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/70 "2021-06-13T14:29:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But do you allow that it might be _more_ so for indigenous people, especially in the face of overt genocide denialism? Yes, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/71 "2021-06-13T14:33:41Z")
Then they should be given _more_ leeway than other posters, not _less_. For instance, non-condescending mod notes as a first option, rather than immediate thread bans. See **ITD** ’s excellent advice in post #47 ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/72 "2021-06-13T15:04:57Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That is not remotely any meaning I have ever seen, or can reasonably construe, for “outcasts”. Merriam-Webster: rejected or cast out by society American Heritage: one that has been excluded from a society or system. I don’t think it’s a particularly felicitous choice. It’s not a word I would have personally chosen. But I also don’t think it’s horribly wide of the mark. Those children who were stolen were literally cast out from where they belonged. And a key point here is that the “agency” of outcasts doesn’t come into play, which was one of the repeated complaints. Innocents can be outcasts. Even if the word is wrong, it’s not so far afield as to automatically imply guilt among those who were stripped away from their homes and families. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If you’re going to use the word in an idiosyncratic sense, don’t be surprised if other people take it to mean what it usually means. That’s perfectly reasonable, of course. But to repeat, what it “usually means” still does not automatically imply guilt. “Outcast” includes those wrongfully cast out. More broadly: Precision in word choice is a high hurdle to demand of other human beings, most especially when precision in word interpretation is also imperfect. When you get down to it, basically no-one speaks or reads well off the cuff. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/73 "2021-06-13T15:14:35Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Merriam-Webster: rejected or cast out by society > > American Heritage: one that has been excluded from a society or system. Were they rejected or excluded from the families that they were taken from? > [@Hellestal](#): > > Those children who were stolen were literally cast out from where they belonged. I really don’t see how that follows. If someone kidnaps your child, did you cast them out? > [@Hellestal](#): > > Innocents can be outcasts. Yes they can be. In some societies, children are sometimes rejected or excluded from the community through no fault of their own. This was not what happened here. These children were taken. > [@Hellestal](#): > > But to repeat, what it “usually means” still does not automatically imply guilt. “Outcast” includes those wrongfully cast out. It is the attempts to defend this term more than the arguments against it that most sway my opinion that it is a remarkably terrible label to put upon these children. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/74 "2021-06-13T15:16:04Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Those children who were stolen were literally cast out from where they belonged. No, they were not - “cast out” would mean that _their place of origin_ did the casting. [Casting](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cast#English) as an action is one of pushing, not pulling. That was not what happened here. “Stolen” and “cast out” **are** mutually exclusive. And _continuing_ to insist they’re synonyms is starting to seem like deliberate misuse. And continuing doing so in a thread that’s about mod action against someone who got justifiably angry at such mischaracterization seems unnecessarily provocative. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/75 "2021-06-13T15:20:21Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Merriam-Webster: rejected or cast out by society > > American Heritage: one that has been excluded from a society or system. > > I don’t think it’s a particularly felicitous choice. It’s not a word I would have personally chosen. But I also don’t think it’s horribly wide of the mark. Those children who were stolen were literally cast out from where they belonged. They were not cast out by the society they were part of. They were deliberately kidnapped and dragged out of it by the society that had won the war. If someone is taken away by force, or for that matter if they leave voluntarily, they are not “cast out.” Again, I have never before seen anyone trying to claim that kidnap victims have by the act of kidnapping been “cast out”. > [@Hellestal](#): > > Innocents can be outcasts. Of course innocents can be outcasts. That’s not the point. The objection isn’t that calling the kidnapped children outcasts is putting blame on them. The objection is that it’s categorizing their treatment as being no different from the way society often treats individuals outcast by their own society, rather than being – as it explicitly was – part of an intention to destroy an entire society. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/76 "2021-06-13T15:52:12Z")
When I read “outcast” in the original thread, it didn’t ping my radar as problematic. I was initially confused why **Banquet\_Bear** found it insulting. But I listened to him, and thanks to his explanations (and yes, his anger), I realized it was offensive as hell. If I were kidnapped, would I be bothered to be called an outcast? Fuck yeah. We all have blind spots. That was one of mine. It’s not a character flaw to have one. But it’s a problem if you aren’t willing to listen to others and examine your blind spots. For those saying you don’t see the racism, or “outcast” is valid from a certain perspective, try looking from someone else’s perspective. For those arguing that we still need civility, look at the _way_ you are saying it. Listen to the BIPOC who are telling you that it is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/77 "2021-06-13T16:00:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Of course innocents can be outcasts. That’s not the point. It was, repeatedly, _a_ point of the poster I was referring to even if it was not _the_ point in your own posts. The claim was made, repeatedly, that the word was used to assign blame to victims as if they had “agency”. This can easily be cited, if you missed it. I accept that this is not _your_ point, and in your estimation not _the_ point. And that’s fine. I think you make a good argument here. I’m inclined to agree with you. I would just point out that it is easy to miss _the_ point from your perspective when one of the primary purposes of my own post was to point out that this assumption of agency, from another poster who was not you, was not well founded. Likewise this: > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, they were not - “cast out” would mean that _their place of origin_ did the casting. Casting as an action is pushing, not pulling. > > “Stolen” and “cast out” **are** mutually exclusive. I think that’s also a reasonable argument. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It is the attempts to defend this term more than the arguments against it that most sway my opinion that it is a remarkably terrible label to put upon these children. “I don’t think it’s a particularly felicitous choice.” “It’s not a word I would have personally chosen.” My “defense” of the word has hardly been iron. This paragraph basically encapsulates my broader views here: > [@Hellestal](#): > > More broadly: Precision in word choice is a high hurdle to demand of other human beings, most especially when precision in word interpretation is also imperfect. When you get down to it, basically no-one speaks or reads well off the cuff. I think people are – still, again, repeatedly – expecting perfect precision in a context in which it is not possible. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/78 "2021-06-13T16:06:47Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > I think people are – still, again, repeatedly – expecting perfect precision in a context in which it is not possible. People aren’t expecting perfection, but we are hoping for listening, acknowledgement of an offense, and attempt to repair the damage. Instead I see a lot of defense. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/79 "2021-06-13T16:34:02Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > I think people are – still, again, repeatedly – expecting perfect precision in a context in which it is not possible. It’s not asking for perfect precision to not call kidnapping victims “outcasts”. And it would be fine if the poster then said, “My bad, you’re right, they are not outcasts.” But instead they doubled down and insisted it was appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/80 "2021-06-13T17:53:00Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > The claim was made, repeatedly, that the word was used to assign blame to victims as if they had “agency”. This can easily be cited, if you missed it. > > I accept that this is not _your_ point, and in your estimation not _the_ point. And that’s fine. I think you make a good argument here. I’m inclined to agree with you. I would just point out that it is easy to miss _the_ point from your perspective when one of the primary purposes of my own post was to point out that this assumption of agency, from another poster who was not you, was not well founded. That is sort of a point – but the victims were not only the children. The victims were also their parents, their other relatives, and their entire communities. The implication of calling the children outcasts is in part to blame those victims. > [@TroutMan](#): > > People aren’t expecting perfection, but we are hoping for listening, acknowledgement of an offense, and attempt to repair the damage. Instead I see a lot of defense. This. A response of ‘whoops, that was terrible wording, sorry, what I meant was x’ would have been one thing. To have multiple people insisting that there’s no reason for anyone to take offense from the words is something else altogether. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2021, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129/82 "2021-06-13T19:34:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Seriously - what’s more racist than the non-Indigenous telling one of the few indigenous to just not post on the topic of indigenous issues? Leaving any such thread a lovely echo chamber of genocide denial and White fragility, as we’ve seen. His post was in no way racist. There was no genocide denial in that thread, as there _was no genocide._ You simply declaring that horrible episode “genocide” does not make it so, even if you say it in over and over and over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129.md?page=5)