# Engineers and Iron Rings **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352 "2004-12-06T13:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/1 "2004-12-06T13:10:14Z")
As a Canadian engineer (build bridges kind, not \*whoo whoo \* kind), in my final year, we had an elaborate ceremony where everyone was given their “iron” ring (actually stainless steel), we all held onto a chain and swore an oath not to pass bad workmanship and so on. Ther ceremony and the oath are linked to Rudyard Kipling, who was evidently a fan of engineers and their works. Canadian engineers can easily be spotted by the ring on the pinky finger of their working hand. I have heard that this ceremony (or something like it) also exists in some states, although it appears to have been “imported” or adapted from Canada’s ritual. [This site](http://www.ironring.ca/) says that the ceremony is Canadian in origin, and a [similar American website](http://www.order-of-the-engineer.org/e-ring.htm) seems to back that up. But as far as I can tell, only a few US schools of engineering have adopted the idea; it does not seem to be widely recognized stateside. It is certainly a big deal for Canadian engineers, and the Iron Ring tradition has even been commemorated on a [postage stamp](http://www.sandscriptprint.com/Cdn_Images/Engineer.jpg) **Dopers:** does anyone else out there have the same (or a similar) ceremony for engineers? I would be interested to see how widely this idea might have spread. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/2 "2004-12-06T13:26:47Z")
The engineer I work for subscribes to the [Structural Engineer’s Association International](http://www.seaint.org/) email list which had just such a discussion about a month or two ago. IIRC, there are a few scattered ceremonies but nothing so formal as the Iron Ring. Lots of the American list members liked the idea, though. Their email archives are searchable so you might want to take a look. On a tangent, both the engineer and myself (structural draftsman) have found the list to be a wealth of info, resources and contacts. It’s definitely worth exploring, just steer clear of the occasional political flamefests if you want to get anything productive accomplished 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ryanbobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ryanbobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryanbobo)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/3 "2004-12-06T14:59:51Z")
My college did it. I didn’t take part. I had actually forgotten about it, which shows how big it is in the US. I can’t remember the last time I saw someone wear one of those rings. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/4 "2004-12-06T15:13:20Z")
My daughter got her civil engineering degree from Union College in Schenectady, NY and she received a stainless steel ring. I don’t know if she got any information on how the practice originated. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/5 "2004-12-06T15:52:36Z")
Since you’ve spoken openly of the ceremony, members of Camp Number One will be coming for you… ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/6 "2004-12-06T16:07:09Z")
I’m an American engineer with 12 years’ experience, and I’ve never heard of this iron ring ceremony. And I usually know about these things. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/7 "2004-12-06T16:08:35Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Since you’ve spoken openly of the ceremony, members of Camp Number One will be coming for you… I’ve always wondered about that. The ceremony was presented to us as being quasi-secretive, but I have always thought that the fact that engineers swear an oath not to pass bad materials or workmanship would be a “plus” and not something we should keep hidden. And it’s not like engineers are any kind of “secret society” for which we are only eligible if we are nominated by one of the Initiated - anyone who takes the courses and passes the exams gets the ring. So bring on the slide-rule ninjas! ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/8 "2004-12-06T16:23:46Z")
What you think the compass you used in Mech Drawing 101 was _just_ a compass? You thought the first year indoctrination of “Engineers alter the world” was just to make you feel better? I’ve said too much. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/9 "2004-12-06T16:51:57Z")
You’re talking about [The Order fo the Engineer](http://www.order-of-the-engineer.org/history.htm) ceremony. It’s an optional ceremony that newly graduated engineers-in-training can participate in. At my college, it was mostly civil and architectural engineers who did so - mosly because we’re the ones who are most concerned with public safety. (not that other engineers don’t care about public safety but they don’t impact it as directly as do civil engineers) It’s a neat idea, I’ve been thinking about this subject a lot and recently started wearing my ring again… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/10 "2004-12-06T16:57:47Z")
> [@SavageNarce](#): > > Ther ceremony and the oath are linked to Rudyard Kipling, who was evidently a fan of engineers and their works. [“The Hymn of Breaking Strain”](http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/p4/breakingstrain.html) > [@](#): > > The careful textbooks measure > (Let all who build beware!) > The load, the shock, the pressure > Material can bear. > So, when the buckled girder > Lets down the grinding span, > The blame of loss, or murder, > Is laid upon the man. > Not on the Stuff—the Man! More verses follow. Great poem. This US engineer has never heard of the ring ceremony, either. How about this, though - do Canadian buildings undergo a topping-out ceremony when the framing is complete? Here, it’s traditional to attach a small pine tree to the top of a building’s framework when it has reached its highest location. That apparently symbolizes the reassembly of the tree in the form of a building structure. Even if it’s steel. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/11 "2004-12-06T17:45:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > This US engineer has never heard of the ring ceremony, either. How about this, though - do Canadian buildings undergo a topping-out ceremony when the framing is complete? Here, it’s traditional to attach a small pine tree to the top of a building’s framework when it has reached its highest location. That apparently symbolizes the reassembly of the tree in the form of a building structure. Even if it’s steel. I’ve seen a number of small trees at the top of buildings, from houses to skyscrapers, so I’d say yes; there is some kind of topping-out ceremony. Nothing secretive about the iron ring ceremony that I’ve heard of. I had a number of engineer friends some years back, and they were all quite proud of their rings. Of course, they told me of the ceremony and everything; it didn’t seem to be any kind of secret. I do have to add that while the vast majority of engineers I’ve known have been great people, there has been one who was not. I was on a project once, and the project leader (an iron ring wearing guy) would often pull rank using his iron ring: “See this ring? It means I’m smarter than you are! Never question me! This ring means I’m boss!” I lost a lot of respect for the iron ring because of that idiot. It’s only slowly coming back. The lesson? Engineers: always be polite to your project team, and don’t let your ring be a symbol of your ego. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/12 "2004-12-06T18:34:30Z")
Following the ceremony, I remember at least 6 guys that swallowed their ring after baptizing it in beer. Just a data point for the “smarter than you” guy if you ever run into him again. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/13 "2004-12-06T19:05:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …do Canadian buildings undergo a topping-out ceremony when the framing is complete? ] Definitely - see [this article](http://www.museedelaguerre.ca/cwm/new/pr12e.html) - although it doesn’t mention the tree, it’s a commonly-used part of the process. This building has a “self-seeding grass-covered roof” - perhaps that stood in for the tree in this case? ---
**Author:** ![trupa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@trupa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trupa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/14 "2004-12-06T21:46:27Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I do have to add that while the vast majority of engineers I’ve known have been great people, there has been one who was not. I was on a project once, and the project leader (an iron ring wearing guy) would often pull rank using his iron ring: “See this ring? It means I’m smarter than you are! Never question me! This ring means I’m boss!” > > I lost a lot of respect for the iron ring because of that idiot. It’s only slowly coming back. The lesson? Engineers: always be polite to your project team, and don’t let your ring be a symbol of your ego. Ouch Ouch Ouch! If you work with such an engineer, run, don’t walk, to another project. They are bound to fail in a project sooner or later, often with spectacular and embarassing results. In the military they say: “_Who’se the most dangerous soldier you will ever encounter?: a new lieutenant with a map and a radio!._” Same thing in engineering / business. A new / recent engineer full of piss & vinegar with a budget and a project plan is to be feared if they don’t listen to advice from the workers who implement their designs, even more so from their team members. I say young engineers, because old engineers have either discovered this through painfull experience, or failed often and gotten shunted where they can’t do more harm. I’m an Engineer (\*also have an MBA, but don’t hold it against me \* 😛 ) I had two summer work terms before I was in University as a labourer assistant in an oil refinery. The good engineers would come down to the break room at break time, buy a round of double-doubles and bring a box of donuts, and pick the hell out of the brains of the foremen and pipefitters. The lousy ones would lord it over the blue-collar workers, and remind them of their engineering superiority. In retaliation, the workers would obey them to the letter (\*making sure they had witnesses / instructions in writing. That kind of engineer is also the first to blame the workers \* :rolleyes: ) This lesson paid off for me big time when I started working tech support on digital phone systems (PBX’s) with only a 3 week course in my head. The first year I should have bought shares in Tim Horton’s and Molson, I bought so many donuts & owed so many beers. But I got the inside tips & tricks, I got the advice I needed when I needed it. I was able to look like a hero a couple times too. All because I respected my old-timer techs, and I listened to them. Just like the smart new Lieutenant listens to his seargents, whose job it is to prevent his wet-behind-the-ears LT from getting the plattoon all killed in their first engagement. So, dammit, young engineers, and engineering students, listen up. Remember: some of those techs / writers / floor workers / line jockeys / pipefitters were doing this when you were learning long division. They can save your ass and make you look like a star. Or they can give you all the rope you want to hang yourself. Finaly, speaking of Kipling, here’s my favourite ode to engineers, which, If I am not mistaken, is indeed part of the ceremony: [The Sons of Martha](http://www.mindspring.com/~blackhart/The_Sons_of_Martha.html) ---
**Author:** ![trupa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@trupa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trupa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/15 "2004-12-06T21:55:07Z")
> [@SavageNarce](#): > > As a Canadian engineer (build bridges kind, not \*whoo whoo \* kind), in my final year, we had an elaborate ceremony where everyone was given their “iron” ring (actually stainless steel), Nit pick: I believe the carbon content in the alloy is to high (_12% - 13% ??? can’t remember exactly…_.) to call it “Steel”, iirc it’s actually a stainless iron… > [@SavageNarce](#): > > Canadian engineers can easily be spotted by the ring on the pinky finger of their working hand. I was told the reason for wearing it on this finger is that it will rub agains the paper when you sign your name to approve a plan / spec / document, thus reminding you of your oath. ---
**Author:** ![trupa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@trupa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trupa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/16 "2004-12-06T22:00:51Z")
PS. Iron rings make great grounding electrodes when you’ve built up a big static charge and don’t want to get “zapped”. Our grocery store has new plastic-handled carts that can build up an impressive charge. Just quickly and firmly tap your clenched fist against a metallic object, the same way you would bang it on a table to make a point. You won’t feel a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/17 "2004-12-06T22:03:04Z")
I was a brand-new lieutenant in the Air Force (no map, no radio) with a crisp white engineering degree from a big-name school in a shiny lacquered frame when I went to my first assignment. I was very dangerous, so the first thing they did with me was put me in a holding area for six months while my clearances went through. I spent that time basically shooting the breeze with the wise old owls of our unclassified group, making new paper airplane designs, and getting my ego taken in a few pegs. I met three “iron ring” engineers working there in the holding area before I noticed the ring and got the story from one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Voluble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4af34b/32.png) [@Voluble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voluble)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/18 "2004-12-07T06:39:24Z")
I’ve never heard of the ceremony but then I’m an electrical engineer, not a gearhead. The idea of having a keepsake is appealing but actually wearing it would be hazardous to any engineer that likes to get his hands dirty… and that’s most of the engineers who are worth their salt. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/19 "2004-12-07T07:34:35Z")
Finally went thru the ceremony and got my ring, this fall. To me, it means re-establishing the things that Civil Engineers are compelled to do: enhance the quality of life; bring science into everyday living. I dont’ ever take my ring off. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352/20 "2004-12-09T18:51:52Z")
> [@Voluble](#): > > …actually wearing it would be hazardous to any engineer that likes to get his hands dirty… and that’s most of the engineers who are worth their salt. True, but also true about wedding rings, navel piercings, and most other forms of jewelry. Just because I have the iron ring doesn’t mean I won’t observe the basic safety precautions when I operate equipment. In fact, I hope that my engineering background will make me even **more** observant of safety around machinery. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-and-iron-rings/278352.md?page=2)