# Engineers/Mechanically Employed Dopers: Would this have been useful? Plus: Ethics **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 17, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196 "2009-02-17T00:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/21 "2009-06-06T17:49:00Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > One thing your son might look into is getting the Devry HS diploma and AS, and then starting out at another two year school with a better reputation. After he gets a degree there, there’s really no need for him to put any HS info on his resume, so he can avoid the Devry stigma. Good point. And don’t people put their graduating year and degree, anyhow? So couldn’t he could simply put: Northwestern University, 2015, Masters of Science - Mechanical Engineering Notre Dame, 2013 Bachelor of Science, _summa cum laude_ - Engineering (Hey, it’s my example, I’m gonna dream big!😃 Also…it’s obvious I know nothing about engineering or the degree systems thereof!) Would anyone care, resume-wise, that some of his credits transferred from another school? After you’ve got the real goods, is the sin of omission great? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/22 "2009-06-06T17:57:33Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > Could your son buckle down and study for his GED and then go to community college next year instead? That would get him out of the unsafe environment and give him a chance to do the basics and find out what really does appeal to him. A GED is also seen as detrimental, don’t kid yourself. It is _never_ regarded as being as good as a high school diploma, whether or not that’s the way it should be. One way to “erase” the GED or DeVry stigmata from your record (of course, it _remains_ there, but you know what I mean) is to go from there to _another_ degree, one with more weight and prestige. If you have a Bachelor’s or Master’s in XYZ from the Univerity of Illinois or Purdue or Notre Dame or what have you then the DeVry or GED thing won’t matter nearly so much. So, if, _for sure_ he’s going on to a four-year degree at a regular university that might well be a good option - but what others have said is true. _Many_ employers loathe DeVry and actively look down on the people who went there, whether they should or not. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/23 "2009-06-06T17:59:18Z")
I think some if not all schools offer “Bachelor of Engineering” and “Master of Engineering” (B. Eng. and M. Eng.) instead of Science… Still good! 😃 And did you make sure those schools actually offer Engineering? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/24 "2009-06-06T18:06:45Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Good point. And don’t people put their graduating year and degree, anyhow? So couldn’t he could simply put: > > Northwestern University, 2015, Masters of Science - Mechanical Engineering > Notre Dame, 2013 Bachelor of Science, _summa cum laude_ - Engineering > > (Hey, it’s my example, I’m gonna dream big!😃 Also…it’s obvious I know nothing about engineering or the degree systems thereof!) > > Would anyone care, resume-wise, that some of his credits transferred from another school? After you’ve got the real goods, is the sin of omission great? What about getting him into one of the magnets like Whitney Young or IMSA? ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/25 "2009-06-06T18:17:41Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But it’s going to be a hard sell to my husband if we do that. He’s a college educator, and his opinion is that homeschooling starting junior year is going to look way too much like dropping out of high school for any decent college to consider him. > [@Broomstick](#): > > A GED is also seen as detrimental, don’t kid yourself. It is _never_ regarded as being as good as a high school diploma, whether or not that’s the way it should be. Just another opinion: I didn’t go to high school at all (OK, I did the first three months of 9th grade, but that hardly counts). We didn’t formally homeschool either, although I liked science and math and pretty much kept up with where I was supposed to be on my own efforts. When I decided I had to go to college _now_ or it wasn’t going to happen, I got a GED, spent one year at a community college and transfered (as a sophomore) to MIT, which is a pretty “decent” school :). Now I’m a research biologist with a PhD. In the long run, not going to high school didn’t hurt me any (except maybe on the socialization and pop culture knowledge front), and was a lot more fun. So it can be done. (It’s only when I write posts like this that I realize how _weird_ my childhood was. It seemed perfectly reasonable at the time…) JRB ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/26 "2009-06-06T18:45:18Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > What about getting him into one of the magnets like Whitney Young or IMSA? Easier said than done. Both of those schools (nearly all the charter and magnet schools in the CPS system) have far more applicants than spots. You apply, you meet whatever their requirements are, and then there’s a lottery for admissions. We’ve applied to both of those (and others) every year with no luck. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/27 "2009-06-06T19:48:18Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I think some if not all schools offer “Bachelor of Engineering” and “Master of Engineering” (B. Eng. and M. Eng.) instead of Science… Still good! 😃 And did you make sure those schools actually offer Engineering? 😉 There are a number of MEng programs, but I can’t think of a US school that offers BEng degrees off the top of my head. Most of the schools that offer MEng degrees also offer an MS in engineering - the difference is the structure of the program and the focus of the work. MEng programs are typically terminal degrees, and the focus on engineering as it’s practiced. Rather than a research thesis, the student’s work on a particular design project as if they were professionals working for a client. Classwork for an MEng course will include some technical subjects, but also frequently goes into project management and some of the business side of the profession. An MEng is a great degree for somebody who wants to manage or own a consulting business. It’s usually seen as a terminal degree, similar to an MBA. MS degrees in engineering are research based, and are more focused on the knowledge than the actual nuts and bolts of the profession. MS programs can lead to PhDs - it’s rare for MEng holders to go on to doctoral work. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Good point. And don’t people put their graduating year and degree, anyhow? So couldn’t he could simply put: > > Northwestern University, 2015, Masters of Science - Mechanical Engineering > Notre Dame, 2013 Bachelor of Science, _summa cum laude_ - Engineering > > (Hey, it’s my example, I’m gonna dream big!😃 Also…it’s obvious I know nothing about engineering or the degree systems thereof!) > > Would anyone care, resume-wise, that some of his credits transferred from another school? After you’ve got the real goods, is the sin of omission great? For the most part, people are interested in your last degree. If I’m looking at your son straight out of high school, I may be skeptical of a Devry education; if I see that he’s since graduated from Notre Dame _summa cum laude_, then I’m comfortable with his education. Unless you’re filling out an application that requires you to list each institution, there’s no sin of omission in naming only the degree-granting program. If Notre Dame accepts two years worth of community college classwork, then those credits count exactly the same as credits other students earn in their first two years at Notre Dame. Likewise, the degree says “Bachelor of Science, Notre Dame” - it doesn’t make any distinction between students who transferred and students who were there from day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/28 "2009-06-06T20:06:36Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > This is kinda tangential, but one thing that people looking into engineering need to be aware of is that engineering and engineering technology degrees are not the same, and that there are a number of jobs that specifically require an engineering degree. When it comes time to look for colleges, keep an eye out for which degree is actually offered. I also want to echo this concern. It’s not an issue for the high school program, but engineering technology (ET) is a very different degree from engineering. The core requirements - math, physics, stats, etc. - are tougher for engineering than for ET. In most states, ET grads are not eligible for professional engineering licensing, which really limits how far somebody with an ET degree can advance _as an engineer_ in the industry. Most of the ET grads I’ve worked with have ended up in positions that require a fair level of technical understanding, but little actual engineering design work - jobs like engineering sales, technical marketing, or construction management. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/29 "2009-06-06T20:51:46Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Northwestern University, 2015, Masters of Science - Mechanical Engineering > Notre Dame, 2013 Bachelor of Science, _summa cum laude_ - Engineering Why not your friendly in-state flagship public university, the University at Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, whose stature in engineering is higher than either of those two? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/30 "2009-06-07T03:09:03Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Why not your friendly in-state flagship public university, the University at Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, whose stature in engineering is higher than either of those two? Ah, that’ll do, too! Honestly, I picked Notre Dame 'cause my brother in law got his engineering degree there, and it’s been on my mind lately 'cause my husband (also a Notre Dame grad) just applied for a one year position there. Should that evolve into a tenure track for him, it’d be a great school for the kiddo, as most colleges have some sort of tuition break for kids of professors. I don’t know if he’ll have the grades to get in, though. We’ll see! And I picked Northwestern 'cause I used to live in Evanston, and that’s where husband got his Ph.D. from. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/31 "2009-06-07T06:33:19Z")
I’m a Devry graduate. (A.S in electronics) I’m currently making twice to going rate for someone in my field. Granted, I was hired back in the early 90’s when companies (at least in the Dallas area) were desperate for techs. Very fortuitous for me indeed. I’m not sure where all the Devry negativity is comming from. One thing I do know; I knew MORE than any given grad coming out of a comunity college. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/32 "2009-06-07T10:53:19Z")
My experience is that in the Chicago area people tend to suffer from school snobbery. As an example, in K-12 going to _any_ private school, no matter how crappy, is seen as inherently superior to _any_ public school, no matter how good. I have even heard people say they’d never hire someone from any public school because they are inferior. 4-year colleges are valued over community colleges regardless of circumstances. And the DeVry type schools are loathed and despised. I can’t help but think there’s some bias at work here, something to do with parents who spent tens of thousands getting Precious into private schools from kindergarden on being outraged that those public school losers who opted for community college or a DeVry instead of a Very Prestigious University might actually be able to _compete_ with Precious out in the real world. Of course, that is not a universally held sentiment but the meme does exist in this area to a degree I haven’t seen other places I’ve lived. So DeVry graduates may be at a disadvantage in some areas in Chicago but not at such a disadvantage in, say, Dallas, TX. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/33 "2009-06-07T15:20:32Z")
I read this snippet on another board the other day, regarding accreditation and DeVry-type schools: > [@](#): > > I had to do some serious “bubble bursting” about a year ago. At my previous employer, I did quite a bit of interviewing for engineering staff. A young man applied for a vacant position that specificly called for am “Electrical, Marine or Mechanical Engineering degree from an ABET accredited university”. (I know this because I wrote the requirment.) This young man sent his resume in and HR thought he looked good so they set up a in-person interview since he was in the local area. Myself and the rep from the Mechanical Engineering group walked in the office and were handed his resume 30 minutes before this guy was to show up. We look over his resume and saw he put that he had a BSEE degree, but no school name was given. We both noticed the absense of a school, but discounted it considering that he was a young guy, only 21, and he may have overlooked that bit of information, considering he was getting an interview for a $90K per year job. Well the interview started, we shoke hands, asked all the boilerplate questions, and then Chris, my Mech E friend, ask about his “school”. The young man was VERY proud of the fact that in only two years he recieved his “BSEE” degree from one of those “Walmart Schools” (DeVry, ITT, etc), while working a day job as a sales clerk. My associate got up and walked out of the room, as did our Engineering Admin girl. (Partially in disgust, partially to avoid laughing in the guys face.) Since my friends abandoned me, I got to explain that his degree was not accredited, exactly what “accredition” meant and that in fact even putting “BSEE” on his resume could cause him problems. He of course disagreed and stated that “The school told me this degree was just as good as one from Texas A&M or University of Texas.” My response “They may think that; but this company, as well as the State of Texas, does not hold thier school in such high reguard.” I refered him over to our Lead Electrician in case he still was interested in a position in the company as an Electrician’s Helper. I feel for the kid; he paid several thousand dollars, wasted two years, and has nothing to show for it. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/34 "2009-06-07T16:06:15Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > I’m a Devry graduate. (A.S in electronics) > > I’m currently making twice to going rate for someone in my field. > > Granted, I was hired back in the early 90’s when companies (at least in the Dallas area) were desperate for techs. Very fortuitous for me indeed. > > I’m not sure where all the Devry negativity is comming from. One thing I do know; I knew MORE than any given grad coming out of a comunity college. While DeVry may not be quite the lawsuit magnet that U Phoenix is, it has been sued several times for providing a poor quality education and engaging in deceptive advertising (see [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeVry_University#Controversies) for details). While none of those suits have been successful, it’s hard to believe that a decent quality school would attract even one such lawsuit, let alone three. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/35 "2009-06-07T20:14:33Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > What he wants to do is still somewhat nebulous, but something engineering, mechanical, designing and putting things togetherish. Sorry that’s vague, but he’s only 16, and doesn’t exactly know what’s out there yet. Engineers don’t usually put things together. We do the design, other folks do the welding. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/36 "2009-06-07T22:37:48Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Plus, a bonus ethical question: is it ethically okay for us to use this specialized program as a safe haven high school when his seat there (assuming he gets in) might be bumping some poor kid who really \*does \*want to be a Network Systems Administrator when she grows up? I’ll answer this one…you have to look after your own. If you need to get your son out of a dreadful school, so be it. Who knows, he may end up liking NSA or Web Graphic Design. You’re not “bumping” some other kid. They’ll just get their opportunity another way. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@Big\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_G)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/37 "2009-06-08T16:02:08Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Engineers don’t usually put things together. We do the design, other folks do the welding. A lot of engineers don’t put things together, but there certainly are engineering jobs where you do. The variety of job experiences is one of the great (and overwhelming) things about engineering. I’m a Mech. E. and work in R&D. I do a lot of prototyping and at times I’m involved in every aspect of making parts from machining to foundry work to grit blasting to inspection. I get a lot of satisfaction from seeing a part go from a design on the computer to something sitting in front of me. **WhyNot** , if your son wants to get his hands dirty, he’ll be able to. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/38 "2009-06-08T18:41:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Engineers don’t usually put things together. We do the design, other folks do the welding. Interesting example. I’m a welding engineer, and I have no friggin’ idea how to weld. On second thought, obviously I have and idea; I really just don’t have the talent or hands-on experience. I’ve been thinking of taking some community college classes to learn how. I always love the vendor demos when I get to put on a mask and make things stick together. We don’t use a lot of GMAW in my industry, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/39 "2009-06-08T22:41:27Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Engineers don’t usually put things together. We do the design, other folks do the welding. I hope you are not one of those engineers that walks away from the job as soon as the welding starts. Especially with mechanical systems, startup and commissioning are an important part of the job. Designers who consider their job done when they hand over the plans are not people I like to work with. Engineers who stick around and make things work are. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196/40 "2009-06-09T02:30:00Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > I hope you are not one of those engineers that walks away from the job as soon as the welding starts. > > Especially with mechanical systems, startup and commissioning are an important part of the job. Designers who consider their job done when they hand over the plans are not people I like to work with. Engineers who stick around and make things work are. Ugh!! I wish I had a nickle for every time an engineer handed me something and expected it to work. I’m like really? You _really_ think this is going to work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineers-mechanically-employed-dopers-would-this-have-been-useful-plus-ethics/486196.md?page=3)