# England sentence proves UCMJ works as intended! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 28, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841 "2005-09-28T13:35:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/41 "2005-09-29T22:02:05Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Undoubtedly this is the sort of rationalization that will be used for letting them get off scott free. But I just don’t buy it. We are supposed to believe that the noncoms’ senior officers allowed other officers to order them to do all sorts of, um, DIFFERENT and SPECIAL things … TORTURE I think they call it … to the prisoners at Abu Ghraib and the noncoms never came to their officers to tell that what was going on, or the officers never noticed, etc. I’m sorry, I just don’t buy it, and I don’t see how any reasonable person could. Those officers HAD to know what was going on. It’s not like they were out on patrol or something, it all went on, very much in the open, in that prison. While I don’t have **Monty** ’s experience, I did spend 3 years on a highly secure intelligence Air Force base. The only officers who knew what was going on, on a daily basis, were the butterbars\* assigned to the unit. And if some random Eagle came up and told me to do something, I would do it. So would a butterbar. I, personally, was a lot more questioning than most of my peers - I was a few years older and was using the Air Force to finish my bachelor’s degree. I’d like to think I would have agressively questioned orders to torture POWs, as even then, I had some insights as to the Geneva Convention. Much of the unit, however, would have been troubled to locate Geneva on a map if you spotted them Switzerland. Additionally, they were not “out in the open”. They were inside a prison, and the people overseeing day-to-day were non-coms like Granier. _If_ they weren’t ordered, when an officer showed up, I doubt they were torturing suspects and taking pictures. It is only the colossal idiocy of everyone involved taking pictures that brought this to light. I am a reasonable person. Rather than let my dislike of the Iraq occupation and the current CinC in general cloud all my judgments, I attempt to point out all options, not just the ones that make the people I don’t like look the worst. For all I know, you are right, and if you are, I totally agree. Commanding staff should be held even more accountable than England, Granier and the others. I cannot prove it one way or another, all I can do is point out different possibilities as to why no officers are going to trial. \*butterbar = 2nd lieutenant fresh out of ROTC, who we got to watch progress to Captain and then replaced with a new butterbar. Butterbars are greener than most of the people under their command. Non-coms who attended OTC and came out as 2nd lieus were not considered butterbars where we were. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/42 "2005-09-29T22:21:59Z")
ahem. Am I the only one who remembers that the pictures that came out were, apparently, only the tip of the iceberg? I will grant you that the day after those pics were taken, each of those prisoners probably looked about the same. However, when the scandal first erupted, the Senators who actually saw all of the pictures were blunt in their words saying “much much worse” sorts of things. the report had referenced physical injuries, some deaths, did it not? while a non site supervising officer may not be around for party day, and thus would have plausible deniability, there’s no fucking excuse for not noticing injuries etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/43 "2005-09-29T22:27:37Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Even as an 8 year old I understood the concept of implied orders. > > - **Wolfian** , Air Force brat Again that’s not an order. Being an AF brat is NOT the same as being in the AF. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/44 "2005-09-29T22:35:01Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Henry II of England was once heard to say, “Can noone rid me of this burdensome bishop?” in reference to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Tomas a Becket, at the time. Later that night a few of the king’s men went out and killed Becket. Henry II managed to dodge the shitstorm that resulted and kept his crown and his head. In my humble opinion he gave an implied order and is worthy of some guilt. What do you think? Stating ones distaste or “personal preference” for someone doesn’t imply anything. If I was in a war zone, under the extreme stress that comes with being in combat (as I have been) and made the statement “I wish all these insurgents were fucking dead. It would make me so happy” and some of my troops heard it is that an implied order? Anyone who takes that as any sort of order should have been filtered out of the pipline at the MEPS. Using your logic if I DO issue what you call an “implied order” and it’s not followed does that mean I should be able to courts-martial my airmen for disobeying an order? You can’t have it both ways. It is either an order, or it’s not. There are no shades of grey. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/45 "2005-09-30T00:00:11Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I’d like to think I would have agressively questioned orders to torture POWs, as even then, I had some insights as to the Geneva Convention. I’d like to see some proof that the US military has stopped training people in Basic Training and General Military Training with the fundamentals of treating POWs. I went through Basic in 1979 and that was part of the course in Basic. It was also part of the recurrent training in all units to which I was assigned–those included regular Army, Army Reserve, and regular Navy units. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/46 "2005-09-30T00:22:16Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Non-coms who attended OTC and came out as 2nd lieus were not considered butterbars where we were. The derisive term for them was 90 day wonder, wasn’t it? IME, all O1 (to include O1E) were referred to as butterbars. It wasn’t a derisive term usually, just a nickname for the rank. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/47 "2005-09-30T01:15:02Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’d like to see some proof that the US military has stopped training people in Basic Training and General Military Training with the fundamentals of treating POWs. I went through Basic in 1979 and that was part of the course in Basic. It was also part of the recurrent training in all units to which I was assigned–those included regular Army, Army Reserve, and regular Navy units. This certainly was true in the Navy from 1993-1998, when I can directly attest to it. I feel pretty confident that this training is still given. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/48 "2005-09-30T01:18:41Z")
> [@Stinkpalm](#): > > Being an AF brat is NOT the same as being in the AF. Clearly. I was just trying to explain why I had heard the term. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/49 "2005-09-30T01:29:23Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’d like to see some proof that the US military has stopped training people in Basic Training and General Military Training with the fundamentals of treating POWs. I went through Basic in 1979 and that was part of the course in Basic. It was also part of the recurrent training in all units to which I was assigned–those included regular Army, Army Reserve, and regular Navy units. I didn’t get much training in that respect at BMT, although there was some. But let me assure you that it gets beat to death (no pun intended) in follow-up training. Anybody in uniform who claims that they didn’t know that prisoner abuse is illegal is a liar. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/50 "2005-09-30T01:31:41Z")
> [@](#): > > …training people in Basic Training and General Military Training with the fundamentals of treating POWs… This training was also required in the Army during my time, in the early to mid 70s. I find it very hard to swallow that a bunch of lower enlisteds were acting like this in Abu and other places and nobody higher up knew. Where were the NCO’s? Where were the officers? Part of being an NCO or officer is, to know what is going on in your squad or command. At the least, it suggests a lack of discipline and incompetenece. At the worst, it is, well, just worse. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/51 "2005-09-30T01:50:15Z")
> [@wring](#): > > ahem. Am I the only one who remembers that the pictures that came out were, apparently, only the tip of the iceberg? Yes, that’s right. There were many other pictures in the same set - over a hundred. Also 4 or so videos. Various reports have suggested that these additional materials show even worse abuses, such as the rape of young detainees. There have been threads on this in the past. A federal judge, just yesterday, ordered the DoD / CIA to turn over most of these photos and the videos. There’s a 20-day stay on the order, and I’m sure there’ll be appeals etc, so we won’t be seeing these too soon. [News story about this](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1471507.htm), and a copy of [the judgment](http://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/courtweb/pdf/D02NYSC/05-05912.PDF) (.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/52 "2005-09-30T02:54:24Z")
What has come to light are: 1 - that conduct 2 - which was caught on film _and_ 3 - was released to outside parties. Now, it could be that %100 of the conduct was documented and released in this way. That senior officers were not involved in anything more than an oversight in these limited cases. A more likely inference is that the happy coincidence of ‘filming’ and ‘public release’ occured rarely. In other words that the conduct is much more widespread, indeed systemic, than the publicly available evidence shows. In this more likely case, the chances are correspondingly smaller of the conduct occuring without some sort of systemic approval and guidance from higher up. In brief, it is happening so much that it must be planned. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/53 "2005-09-30T03:42:05Z")
Need English-language help: What does “scapegoating”, mean? And how does it not perfectly apply here? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/54 "2005-09-30T04:19:21Z")
Scapegoating is the act of making someone who was involved take all the blame to deflect it from someone else. Oliver North is a good example. The enlisted people here, while guilty as hell, are getting jail time while the officers above them are getting away with little or no punishment. Even if the enlisted men and women did it on their own there should still be some sort of proceeding for their direct superiors as the OIC is always responsible for the conduct of his people. But there’s no proceedings. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/55 "2005-09-30T04:32:24Z")
ISTR at least one officer being relieved of command over this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/56 "2005-09-30T07:13:59Z")
I said it when this stuff broke. I will say it again. This case deserved the use of several firing squads. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/57 "2005-09-30T08:25:10Z")
Sorry, Paul; I can’t agree with you. But that’s only because I’m personally against the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/58 "2005-09-30T12:06:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’d like to see some proof that the US military has stopped training people in Basic Training and General Military Training with the fundamentals of treating POWs. I went through Basic in 1979 and that was part of the course in Basic. It was also part of the recurrent training in all units to which I was assigned–those included regular Army, Army Reserve, and regular Navy units. We also learned Air Force history and all the verses of the Air Force song in Basic. Six months later you would have been hard pressed to find anyone who knew either. I did **not** say it wasn’t taught. Most people in my Basic Unit learned just enough to pass the test and did a brain dump immediately afterwards. I didn’t stay long enough for recurrent training in that subject, but then I was well away from any conflict zone, huddled over a monochrome CRT in a dark interior room with the biggest f’n antenna I’ve ever seen just outside. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/59 "2005-09-30T12:11:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The derisive term for them was 90 day wonder, wasn’t it? > > IME, all O1 (to include O1E) were referred to as butterbars. It wasn’t a derisive term usually, just a nickname for the rank. Something like that. Only ran across one infrequently with a sister squadron at shift change. Never had any academy graduates, so I don’t know if they were treated better. I didn’t think it was used derisively; it just indicated “newb”-ness. I guess the degree of derisiveness _(did I just make that word up?)_ depended upon the speaker and how thin-skinned the target might be. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841/60 "2005-09-30T12:52:15Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I said it when this stuff broke. I will say it again. This case deserved the use of several firing squads. Gettin kinda bloodthirsty over there in Saudi, Paul? In the case of prisoners who were killed – and I don’t think that happened at Abu Ghraib, more like Afghanistan and Bhagram AFB, yes, the death penalty might be appropriate. Prisoners who were merely frightened, beaten or humiliated, their tormentors deserve prison sentences, not death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/england-sentence-proves-ucmj-works-as-intended/323841.md?page=4)