# English and Gaelic names for Irish places **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 5, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782 "2005-04-05T03:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/1 "2005-04-05T03:15:40Z")
Many places in Ireland have both Gaelic and English names. Generally, these fall into two categories, those where the English name is an anglicized version of the Gaelic name (sometimes a rather muddled anglicized version) and those where the English name is an unrelated English word or place name. There’s one obvious exception to this. The Gaelic name for Dublin is “Baile Atha Cliath”. However, “Dublin” is also derived from Gaelic, where it means “black pool.” Is this the only town in Ireland where the English name comes from Gaelic, but it doesn’t come from the Gaelic name for the town? Can you give me some examples of other such towns? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/2 "2005-04-05T06:11:41Z")
A quick Google suggests that _Dubh Linn_ is the name given to the settlement by the Vikings, while _Baile Átha Cliath_ is of true Gaelic origin. So my guess is that the Viking name stuck in the English language more easily, due to greater Viking dominance this side of the water. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/3 "2005-04-05T11:37:28Z")
Um, excuse me, but that doesn’t answer my question at all. According to all the sources I’ve checked, the name “Dublin” came from the Gaelic words meaning “black pool.” Yes, I know that the Vikings founded Dublin, but the name didn’t come from Norse. Furthermore, I’m not asking about why Dublin happened to get its particular English and Gaelic names or why those names stuck. I’m asking if there is any other cases of an Irish town whose English name is not derived from an English word or place name and is not just an anglicized version of the Gaelic name. ---
**Author:** ![counsel\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@counsel\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/counsel_wolf)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/4 "2005-04-05T12:13:07Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > I’m asking if there is any other cases of an Irish town whose English name is not derived from an English word or place name and is not just an anglicized version of the Gaelic name. Greeting from Waterford: Irish: Port Lairge Old Norse: [Vedrarfjiordr](http://www.waterfordcity.ie/history.htm) so there’s at least one example. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/5 "2005-04-05T12:37:04Z")
O.K., thanks, but I didn’t express myself well. Are there any other cases like Dublin, where the English name comes from Gaelic, but it’s not the same Gaelic word as the Gaelic name of the town? ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/6 "2005-04-05T13:02:06Z")
Wendell, I understand your question, but I think there may be an underlying assumption involved which isn’t correct in this case. While both Dubh linn and Baile Atha Cliath are Gaelic names, originally they were names of two neighboring, but distinct, places, not two different names for the same place. According to my Pocket Guide to Irish Place Names (P.W Joyce, Appletree Press, Belfast, 1984, pp54-5): “_Duibh-linn_ (Duvlin) which is some of the Latin Lives of the saints is translated _Nigra Therma_, black pool … was originally the name of that part of the Liffey on which the city [of Dublin] is built… an artificial ford of hurdles was constructed across the Liffey, where the main road from Tara to Wicklow crossed the river; and the city that subsequently sprung up around it [the ford] was called from this circumstance Ath-Cliath (Ah-clee), the ford of the hurdles… but [the Irish] join it Bally - _Baile-atha-cliath_ … the town of the hurdle ford.” So what we have here are two settlements, one which was built up around the “black pool” and the other around the ford; and in time they grew together and became indistinguishable. However, this does not preclude the possibility that there is some other place in Ireland with two Gaelic names, one of which finds common use in Anglicized form, and the other which retains common usage among Gaelic-speakers. ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/7 "2005-04-05T13:29:50Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > O.K., thanks, but I didn’t express myself well. Are there any other cases like Dublin, where the English name comes from Gaelic, but it’s not the same Gaelic word as the Gaelic name of the town? I’m sure there are probably some but I really can’t think of any as all the towns I can think of are examples of Gaelic/Viking names being Anglicised by keeping the original name but changing the spelling a little bit. I’m sure you’ve found [this link](http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/geography/placenames.html) but it doesn’t really help you with your question. ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/8 "2005-04-05T13:44:01Z")
Actually, after rethinking it **Jerevan Somerville** has the perfect answer and because ‘Dublin’ doesn’t in fact come from a Gaelic name but Viking, your question needs a new example ! ---
**Author:** ![Ardrine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ardrine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ardrine)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/9 "2005-04-05T13:47:29Z")
I thought I might have one in [Lisburn](http://www.ulsterplacenames.org/ancient_buildings_in_place_names.htm) (_Lios na Gairbhe_) but it’s not clear where _burn_ comes from and it might be Scots… ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/10 "2005-04-05T14:01:28Z")
> [@Ardrine](#): > > I thought I might have one in [Lisburn](http://www.ulsterplacenames.org/ancient_buildings_in_place_names.htm) (_Lios na Gairbhe_) but it’s not clear where _burn_ comes from and it might be Scots… [A theory](http://www.lisburn.com/history/history_lisburn/linen_and_the_lambeg_drum.htm) > [@](#): > > It is believed by some that there was another fort going by the name of ‘Lisburn’ about the top of the present Hill Street. With the English settlement in the 17th century and the settlers’ difficulty in pronouncing Irish names, it was a question of ease of pronunciation that changed the town’s name from Lisnagarvey to Lisburn. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/11 "2005-04-05T14:02:24Z")
> [@Ponster](#): > > … because ‘Dublin’ doesn’t in fact come from a Gaelic name but Viking … 😕 **Jerevan** was saying that _Duibh-linn_ is a Gaelic name. And it is – the dead giveaway is the spelling of the sound /v/ as _bh_. ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/12 "2005-04-05T14:10:19Z")
Arrrgghhh, I meant that it was a Viking town and not Gaelic. Hmm, I don’t think I understand the question anymore 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/13 "2005-04-05T14:13:16Z")
> [@Ponster](#): > > Actually, after rethinking it **Jerevan Somerville** has the perfect answer and because ‘Dublin’ doesn’t in fact come from a Gaelic name but Viking, your question needs a new example ! Well, maybe… but while Dublin was the name used by the Vikings, it’s still comes from Gaelic, so to my mind this still stands as a fair example of what the OP is asking. But my point about this example does beg a slightly different question: originally these were two towns with two different names. But as time went by, and the two towns merged more or less into one, _why_ did one Gaelic name (Dublin) predominate in English, while the other (_Baile-atha-cliath_) persisted exclusively in Irish – and nary the 'twain shall meet, so to speak? Might this be because of the Viking origins/associations of Dublin? That is, in spite of its Gaelic name Dublin wasn’t a “Gaelic” town; and so as it and the hurdle-ford town merged, the Gaelic-speakers sort of stubbornly refused to call the whole thing _Duibh linn_ and instead used the name of the other (“truer”) Gaelic town? ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/14 "2005-04-05T14:15:29Z")
> [@Ponster](#): > > Arrrgghhh, I meant that it was a Viking town and not Gaelic. > Hmm, I don’t think I understand the question anymore 🙂 The beginnings of true wisdom, Grasshopper. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/15 "2005-04-05T14:29:13Z")
Given the apparent penchant of the Irish for naming every little corner of Eire according to its specific geographical features, I am going to venture the theory that we aren’t likely to find _any_ single place which has two completely different names of Gaelic origin (and which find their separate ways into common usage). We can find examples of: (1) Places with both Gaelic and Danish/Anglicized Danish names (_e.g._ Port Lairge/Waterford as given above) (2) Place names which are a combination of Gaelic & Danish (Ulster, Leinster, etc.) (3) Places with a Gaelic name and an Anglicized version/corruption/approximation of the Gaelic (4) Places with a Gaelic name and an Anglicized version which abandons attempts at approximation, for convenience (of which Lisburn, above, might be an example) … none of which fits the parameters of the OP’s question. ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/16 "2005-04-05T14:39:03Z")
And don’t forget (5) Towns with no English language name whatsoever - Portlaoise, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/17 "2005-04-05T14:52:16Z")
> [@Jerevan Somerville](#): > > But as time went by, and the two towns merged more or less into one, _why_ did one Gaelic name (Dublin) predominate in English, while the other (_Baile-atha-cliath_) persisted exclusively in Irish – and nary the 'twain shall meet, so to speak? Almost certainly because the castle, the centre of English administration, was part of the settlement next to the 'Dubh linn ’ (which incidentally wasn’t on the Liffey at all but on the Poddle). ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/18 "2005-04-06T14:32:52Z")
> [@curly chick](#): > > And don’t forget > (5) Towns with no English language name whatsoever - Portlaoise, for instance. Not quite. It was known as Maryborough during the Plantation. ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/19 "2005-04-06T15:06:08Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Not quite. It was known as Maryborough during the Plantation. Holy moly **ruadh**! Not during the Plantation?? 😃 Since that was something like 400 years ago, I’d say my initial premise is safe enough. Call me rash if you like! Seriously though; the only reason I mentioned it is that when you’re driving around the country, roadsigns give you the names of the towns _as Gaeilge_ (in Irish - for people who don’t live here) and in English. But Portlaoise only has the Irish word. Or maybe I should say it’s the only one I’ve seen like that, since I can’t say that I’ve ever spent too much time driving round any _Gaeltacht_, area, so I can’t comment on how they might do it there. Paging **hibernicus** - that sounds like the kind of thing he might know. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782/20 "2005-04-06T19:51:28Z")
> [@curly chick](#): > > Holy moly **ruadh**! Not during the Plantation?? 😃 > > Since that was something like 400 years ago, I’d say my initial premise is safe enough. Call me rash if you like! > > Seriously though; the only reason I mentioned it is that when you’re driving around the country, roadsigns give you the names of the towns _as Gaeilge_ (in Irish - for people who don’t live here) and in English. But Portlaoise only has the Irish word. Or maybe I should say it’s the only one I’ve seen like that, since I can’t say that I’ve ever spent too much time driving round any _Gaeltacht_, area, so I can’t comment on how they might do it there. > Paging **hibernicus** - that sounds like the kind of thing he might know. Cobh, Dún Laoghaire, Laois, Port Laoise and Daingean (Co. Offaly) have no official English-language versions of their names. In each case the name was changed on independence from a “royalist” name (viz., Queenstown, Kingstown, Queen’s County, Maryborough and Philipstown respectively). I believe Ceannanus Mór is another non-Gaeltacht example, although in practice the name Kells is in far more common use. I have thought of an example of a town that meets the criteria in the OP: Neidín/Kenmare, Co. Kerry. Kenmare is an anglicisation of “Ceann Mara”, describing its position at the head of a sea inlet. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-and-gaelic-names-for-irish-places/297782.md?page=2)