# English as a Romance Language. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812 "2007-07-15T01:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/1 "2007-07-15T01:43:41Z")
As many of you may already know, in 1066, William of Normandy invaded England, bringing the French language with him. Because of this, about half the words in the English language are of French origin. Yet whenever I see the English language listed in dictionaries, etc. it is listed as a Germanic language along with Swedish and Dutch. If half the words are from French, shouldn’t it be listed as a Romance language? Or at the very least, isn’t English a hybrid language, neither Germanic nor Romance? Thank you in advance to all who reply 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/2 "2007-07-15T01:55:57Z")
An interesting article is [available here](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmuttonpork.html) , which describes to some extent the history of English words for common meat products. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/3 "2007-07-15T02:01:15Z")
The first question I would ask is for a citation that half of the words in the English language are of French origin. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/4 "2007-07-15T02:03:43Z")
There’s more to situating a language in a linguistic family than just vocabulary. English grammatical construction is Germanic (despite centuries of trying to cram it into the square hole of Latin grammar). The most commonly used words in the language are derived from Germanic sources (the pronouns, the simple verbs, basically the stuff of everyday non-technical conversation). English is a Germanic language with a Romance overlay and numerous polyglot intrusions. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/5 "2007-07-15T02:06:38Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] The first question I would ask is for a citation that half of the words in the English language are of French origin. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Many French words are also intelligible to an English speaker (though pronunciations are often quite different) because English absorbed a large vocabulary from Norman and French, via Anglo-Norman after the Norman Conquest and directly from French in subsequent centuries. As a result, roughly sixty percent of the English vocabulary is derived from French… [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/6 "2007-07-15T02:06:55Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] The first question I would ask is for a citation that half of the words in the English language are of French origin. [/QUOTE] They aren’t. It’s closer to 30%. From [the Wikipedia article on the English language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language): > [@](#): > > A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973) that estimated the origin of English words as follows: > > ``` > * Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3% > * Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24% > * Other Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English): 25% > * Greek: 5.32% > * No etymology given: 4.03% > * Derived from proper names: 3.28% > * All other languages contributed less than 1% (e.g. Arabic-English loanwords) > > ``` > > A survey by Joseph M. Williams in Origins of the English Language of 10,000 words taken from several thousand business letters[31] gave this set of statistics: > > ``` > * French (langue d'oïl), 41% > * "Native" English, 33% > * Latin, 15% > * Danish, 2% > * Dutch, 1% > * Other, 10% > > ``` > > **However, 83% of the 1,000 most-common English words are Anglo-Saxon in origin**. Note that last sentence. It’s more than absolute proportion of word origins. You have to take common usage into account as well. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/7 "2007-07-15T02:20:55Z")
[QUOTE=Jim B.] [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) [/QUOTE] Well, your cite also calls English a Germanic language, and goes on to explain why. Is that part of it to be ignored? **jayjay** makes an excellent point, as well. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/8 "2007-07-15T02:39:00Z")
From David Crystal’s _The Stories of English_ (2004 hardcover), p 162: > [@](#): > > In one modern frequency list of the top 100 words in American written English, virtually all the grammatical words (_the, of, and, to_, etc. …) and all of the content words (_say, only, other, new, first, now, time, like, man, even, make, also, year, way, well_) are from Old English. The first French words occurs only at number 105 (_just_). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/9 "2007-07-15T02:45:37Z")
The English language, like William of Normandy, is very much a bastard. I’m not so sure either Romance or Germanic describes it totally well, but the latter seems to be the best pick. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/10 "2007-07-15T03:02:19Z")
English is conclusively a Germanic language _genetically_. The origins of its early speakers and their movements are well attested in archaelogical record. Any headcount of native vs. borrowed vocabulary doesn’t change a language’s genetic source. There is a significant number of languages in which native vocabulary has been almost wholly replaced by borrowings, leaving only a bare grammatical framework as a clue to genetic origin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/11 "2007-07-15T18:48:43Z")
[hijack] I’d really like to see – but it doesn’t exist, AFAIK – a comprehensive breakdown of English words by language of origin. I.e., one section would be a list – no definitions, pronunciation or etymological details, you’d look elsewhere for that – just an alphabetical list of English words derived from Old English; then a list of words derived from Danish, during the period when Canute ruled; then Norman French; from Latin, by scholarly coinage; from Greek; etc. It would be useful to have if you wanted to, e.g., write a piece using pure Anglo-Saxonisms wherever possible; or write a historical novel set in Greece, using works of Greek origin wherever they will fit. OED editors, take note! It would be a very easy project. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/12 "2007-07-15T20:09:02Z")
Ooh, I’d love to see that, but surely it’s got to exist somewhere. I must investigate this possibility. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/13 "2007-07-16T13:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [hijack] I’d really like to see – but it doesn’t exist, AFAIK – a comprehensive breakdown of English words by language of origin. [/hijack] [/QUOTE] Well, there’s [this.](http://www.krysstal.com/borrow.html#o) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/14 "2007-07-16T14:29:50Z")
[QUOTE=WotNot] Well, there’s [this.](http://www.krysstal.com/borrow.html#o) [/QUOTE] Is it comprehensive? I clicked on “Norman French” and the list of words appears **way** too short! This needs the OED treatment! (I.e., every word in the OED should appear on one list or another.) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/15 "2007-07-16T14:46:01Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Is it comprehensive? I clicked on “Norman French” and the list of words appears **way** too short! This needs the OED treatment! (I.e., every word in the OED should appear on one list or another.) [/QUOTE] It’s not comprehensive, but it’s interesting reading for some of the more far-flung borrowings. Also, note that borrowings from Norman French are separated from French on that site. This is important, because there have been multiple waves of borrowing from French. The first wave in the 11-12th century brought in words that today seem to belie their across-the-Channel origins due to contemporary differences between the Norman-Picard and Île-de-France dialects ([source for further reading](http://www.amazon.com/Latin-Romance-Sound-Charts/dp/087840077X)). For instance, a basic word missing from that site’s Norman French list is the verb **catch**. It is a cognate of Île-de-France _cache_, but with Norman-Picard pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/16 "2007-07-16T15:08:37Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] For instance, a basic word missing from that site’s Norman French list is the verb **catch**. It is a cognate of Île-de-France _cache_, but with Norman-Picard pronunciation. [/QUOTE] Another missing word is "very’, which is one of the few very common English words borrowed from Norman French. It changed its meaning on the way (from meaning “true”), and almost completely replaced the Germanic word with the same meaning (“sore”, cognate with German “sehr”). Incidentally, the French language borrowed quite a bit from Germanic sources, because of various Germanic invasions, including the name of their country (“France”) and their language (“français”). The Franks were one of the Germanic invaders of France, which was called “Gaul” before they arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/17 "2007-07-16T17:25:33Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] There’s more to situating a language in a linguistic family than just vocabulary. English grammatical construction is Germanic (despite centuries of trying to cram it into the square hole of Latin grammar). The most commonly used words in the language are derived from Germanic sources (the pronouns, the simple verbs, basically the stuff of everyday non-technical conversation). English is a Germanic language with a Romance overlay and numerous polyglot intrusions. [/QUOTE] Germanic languages tend to stress the first syllable of the major part of a noun, and Romance languages tend to stress the last or next-to-last syllable. So in both French and English you have tons of words that end in _-ion_, and by far the majority mean the same thing in both languages. But the pronunciation differs greatly, because in English, the stress has moved away from the “-ion” to the syllable before it. In other words, the pronunciation has become Germanicized. I remember **Nava** , a native speaker of Spanish, saying one time that before she learned English she would have had a hard time distinguishing it from Dutch or German. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/18 "2007-07-16T17:46:06Z")
I actually found it interesting when I learned German in High School how many very common German words are very similar to very common English words. You even notice that the grammar rules of English definitely share some heritage with those of German, even though at face value the grammar of both languages is very different. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/19 "2007-07-17T03:04:52Z")
And ironically, German picked upwhat is arguably the worst and most useless “feature” of Romance languages, while English left it at the alter: gender. There’s a bewilderingly complicated and utterly pointless array of word gender, which modifies pronouns and so forth by what the heck is going on the rest of the sentence… It’s just stupid, and even though I syudied German for years I just fake it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812/20 "2007-07-17T03:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] And ironically, German picked upwhat is arguably the worst and most useless “feature” of Romance languages, while English left it at the alter: gender. There’s a bewilderingly complicated and utterly pointless array of word gender, which modifies pronouns and so forth by what the heck is going on the rest of the sentence… It’s just stupid, and even though I syudied German for years I just fake it. 😃 [/QUOTE] From Twain’s [“The Awful German Language”](http://www.kombu.de/twain-2.htm) > [@](#): > > TALE OF THE FISHWIFE AND ITS SAD FATE > > ``` > 2. I capitalize the nouns, in the German (and ancient English) fashion. > > ``` > > It is a bleak Day. Hear the Rain, how he pours, and the Hail, how he rattles; and see the Snow, how he drifts along, and of the Mud, how deep he is! Ah the poor Fishwife, it is stuck fast in the Mire; it has dropped its Basket of Fishes; and its Hands have been cut by the Scales as it seized some of the falling Creatures; and one Scale has even got into its Eye, and it cannot get her out. It opens its Mouth to cry for Help; but if any Sound comes out of him, alas he is drowned by the raging of the Storm. And now a Tomcat has got one of the Fishes and she will surely escape with him. No, she bites off a Fin, she holds her in her Mouth – will she swallow her? No, the Fishwife’s brave Mother-dog deserts his Puppies and rescues the Fin – which he eats, himself, as his Reward. O, horror, the Lightning has struck the Fish-basket; he sets him on Fire; see the Flame, how she licks the doomed Utensil with her red and angry Tongue; now she attacks the helpless Fishwife’s Foot – she burns him up, all but the big Toe, and even she is partly consumed; and still she spreads, still she waves her fiery Tongues; she attacks the Fishwife’s Leg and destroys it; she attacks its Hand and destroys her also; she attacks the Fishwife’s Leg and destroys her also; she attacks its Body and consumes him; she wreathes herself about its Heart and it is consumed; next about its Breast, and in a Moment she is a Cinder; now she reaches its Neck – he goes; now its Chin – it goes; now its Nose – she goes. In another Moment, except Help come, the Fishwife will be no more. Time presses – is there none to succor and save? Yes! Joy, joy, with flying Feet the she-Englishwoman comes! But alas, the generous she-Female is too late: where now is the fated Fishwife? It has ceased from its Sufferings, it has gone to a better Land; all that is left of it for its loved Ones to lament over, is this poor smoldering Ash-heap. Ah, woeful, woeful Ash-heap! Let us take him up tenderly, reverently, upon the lowly Shovel, and bear him to his long Rest, with the Prayer that when he rises again it will be a Realm where he will have one good square responsible Sex, and have it all to himself, instead of having a mangy lot of assorted Sexes scattered all over him in Spots. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-a-romance-language/411812.md?page=2)