# English as the "official" language of the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066 "2012-05-06T13:45:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/81 "2012-05-08T17:42:04Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Apparently a lot of Québécois don’t think so. Since the separtist movement is non-violent, and generally attempts to achieve its goals through the ballot box, I think we can add this to your growing pile of erroneous assertions in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/82 "2012-05-08T18:13:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > ??? > > So, you are not only incapable of finding information for yourself, you appear to be unable to see the information when it is handed to you. > > See the second column of data? The one that says “Native” as a column heading? That is the column of numbers for each category that applies to native born persons living in the U.S. > See the fourth number in that column? The one that has a row label that says ‘TOTAL speak English less than “very well”’? The one that has a figure of 5,647,591? That is the number of persons, native to the U.S. who speak English less than “very well.” > For 2000, that amounts to 2.15% of the population. > > So what? I’m sorry, I overlooked that, but you have to be pretty credulous to believe that number. Do you think that illegal immigrants actually report themselves to the census. Most of the people saying they aren’t fluent in English are probably illegal. I could actually believe that a fair number of people aren’t fluent in English, since I know a fair number of native English speakers that aren’t fluent in English either. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/83 "2012-05-08T18:25:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Since the separtist movement is non-violent, and generally attempts to achieve its goals through the ballot box, I think we can add this to your growing pile of erroneous assertions in this thread. At what point did I state that Québécois are violent? Is you criteria for effective democracy a lack of bloodshed? Also your statements of non-violence is not totally accurate. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau\_de\_R%C3%A9sistance\_du\_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau_de_R%C3%A9sistance_du_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois) [http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/07/csis-probing-violent-infiltrators-in-que-student-movement](http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/07/csis-probing-violent-infiltrators-in-que-student-movement) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/84 "2012-05-08T18:28:18Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m sorry, I overlooked that, but you have to be pretty credulous to believe that number. Do you think that illegal immigrants actually report themselves to the census. Most of the people saying they aren’t fluent in English are probably illegal. > > I could actually believe that a fair number of people aren’t fluent in English, since I know a fair number of native English speakers that aren’t fluent in English either. So, you acknowledge that you have experience of some number of people who do not speak English well, but you still want to claim that the numbers are wrong because they do not conform to your prejudices or your own preconceived notions of how people might respond to the census. (Actually, most illegals are probably going to try to avoid being interviewed for the census rather than boldly announcing that they cannot speak English while still proclaiming that they are in the country.) You simply have an odd way of looking at anything that fails to support your strange beliefs. (If you slide the insert to the right, you will discover that nearly 15.7 million people acknowledged that they did not speak English very well, but that they had not been born in the U.S.) And, as I have asked on a couple of occasions: so what? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/85 "2012-05-08T18:41:48Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > At what point did I state that Québécois are violent? Is you criteria for effective democracy a lack of bloodshed? > > Also your statements of non-violence is not totally accurate. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau\_de\_R%C3%A9sistance\_du\_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau_de_R%C3%A9sistance_du_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois) > > [http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/07/csis-probing-violent-infiltrators-in-que-student-movement](http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/07/csis-probing-violent-infiltrators-in-que-student-movement) No. The criteria for effective democracy, as he pointed out in his post, is the use of the ballot box to attempt to achieve one’s goals. There have been multiple elections by the separatists in the last 30 years, against a few mailboxes blown up forty years ago and a couple of bands heckled in a park more recently by a group that claims a grand number of 500 members in a province of 7.9 million people. (I note that you included your second link as mere padding, since it addresses “communists” and “anarchists” with only a single passing reference to “keeping an eye” on your tiny separatist hecklers.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/86 "2012-05-08T18:44:43Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > At what point did I state that Québécois are violent? Well, you implied it when you said that the existence of a Quebec separatist group indicated that they felt they did not live in a functional democracy. The fact that some Quebecois think they would do better if Quebec were an independent polity does not indicate that there is anything wrong with the Democratic system in Canada. The fact that the separatists seek to enact their agenda through democratic means, and did not react with violence and insurrection when their agenda was defeated, indicates that they accept the legitimacy of the Canadian democratic system. > [@](#): > > Is you criteria for effective democracy a lack of bloodshed? Do you have a better criteria? > [@](#): > > Also your statements of non-violence is not totally accurate. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau\_de\_R%C3%A9sistance\_du\_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau_de_R%C3%A9sistance_du_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois) > > [http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/07/csis-probing-violent-infiltrators-in-que-student-movement](http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/07/csis-probing-violent-infiltrators-in-que-student-movement) Neither of your cites makes any reference to any act of violence carried out by a Quebec separatist, or in the name of separatism. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/87 "2012-05-08T19:21:35Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m sorry, I overlooked that, but you have to be pretty credulous to believe that number. Do you think that illegal immigrants actually report themselves to the census. Most of the people saying they aren’t fluent in English are probably illegal. > > I could actually believe that a fair number of people aren’t fluent in English, since I know a fair number of native English speakers that aren’t fluent in English either. What you don’t seem to realize is that there are still communities in the US where the population doesn’t speak English as its first language, and children being brought up there continue to speak the other language first. Everyone thinks of the Spanish-speakers first, but also think about Chinatown in New York or San Francisco. Thousands and thousands of people, and there are many children there who go to Chinese-language private schools, so their first language is Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/88 "2012-05-08T19:23:54Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m sorry, I overlooked that, but you have to be pretty credulous to believe that number. Do you think that illegal immigrants actually report themselves to the census. Most of the people saying they aren’t fluent in English are probably illegal. Speaking as a former Census worker, there is considerable effort exerted to count those who can not be relied upon to self-report, including illegal immigrants (we also did our best to count the homeless, those living in shelters, the severely handicapped living in medical settings, native-born nutjobs who refused to be counted for political reasons, and who was just visiting the US on official Census Day). You can’t really tell, based on language, who is legal and who isn’t. Plenty of illegals speak perfectly fine English. Certain groups, such as those given asylum, may have little to no English yet are in the US legally. That’s why anyone who spoke a language other than English even just a little bit was in high demand as a Census worker and why we had a hot line to contact if we ran into someone whose primary language was something other than one we knew ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/89 "2012-05-08T20:34:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And, as I have asked on a couple of occasions: so what? Because of the huge political pressure for bilingual education we are creating a huge class of hispanic youth that are illiterate in all languages Spanish and English. [http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Hispanic-literacy-in-U-S-shows-troubling-signs-1927954.php](http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Hispanic-literacy-in-U-S-shows-troubling-signs-1927954.php) > [@](#): > > Forty-four percent of Hispanics, ages 16 and older, do not have basic English skills, meaning they might be unable to use a television guide to find out what programs are on at a specific time or to compare ticket prices for two events. That is a substantial increase from 36 percent a decade ago, the last time the federal government released such a comprehensive literacy study. Please note that many of these students are forced into bilingual classes against the will of their parents because of federal subsidies for bi-lingual education. We are sacrificing a generation of our youth on the altar of diversity. Some states have over 40% Hispanic enrollment in public schools. This is a enormous financial pressure to force students into bilingual education even it they don’t need or want it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/90 "2012-05-08T20:40:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I think you need to exclude New Mexico–officially bilingual–form this declaration. > Otherwise, you are mostly correct. Hawai’i, too, but neither state is “bilingual”. They have two official languages, which is different. Still, there are no Spanish only public schools in NM, keeping native born, Spanish speaking kids sheltered from English through their 16th year. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/91 "2012-05-08T20:46:32Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because of the huge political pressure for bilingual education we are creating a huge class of hispanic youth that are illiterate in all languages Spanish and English. So now you’re saying that education is a cause of illiteracy? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/92 "2012-05-08T20:49:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because of the huge political pressure for bilingual education we are creating a huge class of hispanic youth that are illiterate in all languages Spanish and English. > > [http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Hispanic-literacy-in-U-S-shows-troubling-signs-1927954.php](http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Hispanic-literacy-in-U-S-shows-troubling-signs-1927954.php) There’s nothing in that article that says anything at all about bilingual education. > [@](#): > > Please note that many of these students are forced into bilingual classes against the will of their parents because of federal subsidies for bi-lingual education. We are sacrificing a generation of our youth on the altar of diversity. Some states have over 40% Hispanic enrollment in public schools. This is a enormous financial pressure to force students into bilingual education even it they don’t need or want it. What students are you talking about? The article you linked to is talking about _adult_ illiteracy - and the higher rate of adult illiteracy among Hispanics is specifically attributed to the number of immigrants who move here as adults, and as such, have never been in the American education system. You really need to start reading these cites before you post them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/93 "2012-05-08T21:07:32Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because of the huge political pressure for bilingual education we are creating a huge class of hispanic youth that are illiterate in all languages Spanish and English. > > [http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Hispanic-literacy-in-U-S-shows-troubling-signs-1927954.php](http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Hispanic-literacy-in-U-S-shows-troubling-signs-1927954.php) > > Please note that many of these students are forced into bilingual classes against the will of their parents because of federal subsidies for bi-lingual education. We are sacrificing a generation of our youth on the altar of diversity. Some states have over 40% Hispanic enrollment in public schools. This is a enormous financial pressure to force students into bilingual education even it they don’t need or want it. Again. So what? Bilingual education might be a pretty bad idea. (Or, at least as it has been preacticed in many locations, it is a failure. If done right, it can work.) That, however, has nothing to do with an official national language. We do not need an official language to either drop or correct bilingual education. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/94 "2012-05-08T21:08:15Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > What you don’t seem to realize is that there are still communities in the US where the population doesn’t speak English as its first language, and children being brought up there continue to speak the other language first. Everyone thinks of the Spanish-speakers first, but also think about Chinatown in New York or San Francisco. Thousands and thousands of people, and there are many children there who go to Chinese-language private schools, so their first language is Chinese. Do you have any evidence that these students don’t speak English also? Actually it was always been common for prosperous immigrant parents to want their children to be bi-lingual. I remember H.L. Mencken writing about learning German in grammar school, but he still learned German also. I find it highly unlikely that Chinese parents wouldn’t prepare their children for college, although Mandarin or Cantonese might be a highly useful skill if you plan a career in International Trade. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/95 "2012-05-08T21:11:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hawai’i, too, but neither state is “bilingual”. They have two official languages, which is different. Still, there are no Spanish only public schools in NM, keeping native born, Spanish speaking kids sheltered from English through their 16th year. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/96 "2012-05-08T21:24:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Again. So what? > Bilingual education might be a pretty bad idea. (Or, at least as it has been preacticed in many locations, it is a failure. If done right, it can work.) > > That, however, has nothing to do with an official national language. We do not need an official language to either drop or correct bilingual education. I agree we didn’t need an official language until we had political activists trying to force children to learn Spanish in school. Now we have a whole generation whose livelihood is dependent on bilingual education and they will continue to cripple children until they are stopped. They don’t care that it doesn’t work as long as they get paid. You actually expect schools that can’t even teach one language to teach two? And what is your response to students and parents who don’t want their children to learn Spanish? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/97 "2012-05-08T21:30:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s nothing in that article that says anything at all about bilingual education. > > What students are you talking about? The article you linked to is talking about _adult_ illiteracy - and the higher rate of adult illiteracy among Hispanics is specifically attributed to the number of immigrants who move here as adults, and as such, have never been in the American education system. > > You really need to start reading these cites before you post them. And you apparently can’t deduce anything from the same article that every other group except Hispanics are improving. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/98 "2012-05-08T21:52:30Z")
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/05/the-case-against-bilingual-education/5426/2/](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/05/the-case-against-bilingual-education/5426/2/) [http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/the-bilingual-debate-english-immersion/](http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/the-bilingual-debate-english-immersion/) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/99 "2012-05-08T21:58:00Z")
It’s not just Spanish you know. Some schools are forcing students to learn all kinds of things - math, science, history. And there’s this group called “teachers” - they’re the ones who are behind it. Seriously, you’re complaining that schools are making students learn things. Did that sound better when it was in your head? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066/100 "2012-05-08T22:00:55Z")
One Fun Fact I always like to throw into threads on this topic: Remember [Lawrence Welk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Welk) and his funny foreign accent? Actually, he was born in Strasburg, North Dakota. Where everybody he knew spoke nothing but German. He learned English when he went to school. And, they don’t come any more American than Lawrence Welk. An’ a one an’ a two . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-as-the-official-language-of-the-us/621066.md?page=6)