# English Dopers: Run-up to election, what's it like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484 "2005-04-21T21:20:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/21 "2005-04-22T15:12:58Z")
> [@+MDI](#): > > This line of reasoning has baffled me ever since Blair trotted it out a few days ago. > > Firstly, half the cost of an NHS operation is payed for, with the patient having to be in a waiting list for an NHS operation already. In what way is money being taken out of the NHS? The NHS is making a profit in that it can keep half the cost of what it would otherwise would have had to pay out anyway. > > Secondly, the rich aren’t the only people benefitting. If someone leaves the queue for an operating theatre place, then everyone elses waiting times are cut. > > Not only this, but the Tory proposal is just a copy of what is actually happening now under Labour. £80 million a year is taken from the NHS every year to pay for private operations already. > > What’s Labour’s alternative? To keep the status quo just so they can pretend to be socialists? > > Sorry for the hijack, but I think this needs clearing up. As only wealthy people can afford the half cost then the measure is by definition helping only those people. The money is also going outside the NHS and funding private building and profits instead of staying in the NHS. Yes, of course Labour are having to do a similar thing thanks to 18 glorious years of neglect of the NHS by the tories - but that is paying the whole cost on the basis of need not the ability to pay. A clear difference. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/22 "2005-04-22T15:15:42Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Even the loony parties are dull now. What, even the Monster Raving Loony Party? 🙂[http://www.omrlp.com/](http://www.omrlp.com/) If you’re all so discontented with your choices, why don’t you all vote LibDem? Entirely regardless of whether their policies (if they even have any) are workable, even a slight increase in their share of seats is bound to shake things up and make a PR referendum a likelier prospect. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/23 "2005-04-22T15:23:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Even the loony parties are dull now. I really want [this guy](http://beehive.thisissouthwales.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=9797) not to lose his deposit - he’s standing in my constituency. I think he might get my vote. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/24 "2005-04-22T15:26:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If you’re all so discontented with your choices, why don’t you all vote LibDem? Entirely regardless of whether their policies (if they even have any) are workable, even a slight increase in their share of seats is bound to shake things up and make a PR referendum a likelier prospect. I have voted for them, and probably will again. However, I’ve only ever lived in very safe seats (both Tory and Labour). There’s a dilemma when somebody lives in a marginal seat: eg. if their Tory MP is fighting for his seat against a strong Labour vote, should somebody dissatisfied with Labour for not being left-wing enough vote Lib Dem, and increase the chance of a Tory victory, or stick to Labour? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/25 "2005-04-22T15:35:11Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I have voted for them, and probably will again. However, I’ve only ever lived in very safe seats (both Tory and Labour). There’s a dilemma when somebody lives in a marginal seat: eg. if their Tory MP is fighting for his seat against a strong Labour vote, should somebody dissatisfied with Labour for not being left-wing enough vote Lib Dem, and increase the chance of a Tory victory, or stick to Labour? Precisely my dilemma. I’m in a natural Tory seat they lost by a couple of hundred votes last time round. A vote for anyone but Labour is a vote for The Bigot Party. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/26 "2005-04-22T15:48:21Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > As only wealthy people can afford the half cost then the measure is by definition helping only those people. The money is also going outside the NHS and funding private building and profits instead of staying in the NHS. > > Yes, of course Labour are having to do a similar thing thanks to 18 glorious years of neglect of the NHS by the tories - but that is paying the whole cost on the basis of need not the ability to pay. A clear difference. Firstly private medicine is within the reach of any family that can afford a package holiday. A hip operation on BUPA is about £5k, so £2,500 with a sub. If you’re working you can get hold of that kind of cash. What is really expensive is long term invasive care - eg chemotherapy, which the NHS will still provide. The same would be true of day school education (a decent day school can be had for £5k pa - ie £50 pwk with a 50% sub) (If you’re worried about subsidising kids at Eton - top limit it). And when exactly are Labour going to stop blaming the Tories? - they’ve had eight years - and things are much much worse. Assuming they get in this time that will be twelve years will they still be saying “a big boy did it and ran away”? Making sure that everyone has the worst available experience isn’t a very attractive propsition to me. Still; each to their own. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/27 "2005-04-22T15:51:17Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Firstly private medicine is within the reach of any family that can afford a package holiday. A hip operation on BUPA is about £5k, so £2,500 with a sub. If you’re working you can get hold of that kind of cash. You’re not in the real world. A package holiday costs a fraction of that - £2.5k is over two month’s net pay on the average wage. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/28 "2005-04-22T16:00:26Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > You’re not in the real world. A package holiday costs a fraction of that - £2.5k is over two month’s net pay on the average wage. I’m taking Gordon Brown’s “hard working family” as an example and I’m sending them to Spain in the high season (they’ve got two teenage kids). Adults would be about £500 each - A grand Kids about £350 - £700 £800 spenders for a fortnight doesn’t sound lavish to me - And that’s an archer and a monkey you’ve spent. I’m basing this on my pals expenses - and most of them pay MUCH more than that and they aren’t all loaded. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/29 "2005-04-22T16:59:28Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > I’m taking Gordon Brown’s “hard working family” as an example and I’m sending them to Spain in the high season (they’ve got two teenage kids). > > Adults would be about £500 each - A grand > > Kids about £350 - £700 > > £800 spenders for a fortnight doesn’t sound lavish to me - And that’s an archer and a monkey you’ve spent. I’m basing this on my pals expenses - and most of them pay MUCH more than that and they aren’t all loaded. I know plenty of people on above-average incomes who would be shocked at the idea of that. And even if we take your analysis at face value, you still haven’t justified the ‘50% subsidy’ system’s discrimination against those on below-average incomes. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/30 "2005-04-22T17:00:47Z")
Oh, and you’re also using the spending on four people to pay for one person’s healthcare… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/31 "2005-04-22T17:03:27Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > £800 spenders for a fortnight doesn’t sound lavish to me - And that’s an archer and a monkey you’ve spent. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/32 "2005-04-22T17:10:33Z")
Don’t worry, that’s how all rich Londoners speak 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tuco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tuco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuco)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/33 "2005-04-22T17:12:26Z")
> [@1yearlurker](#): > > So, if I understand it correctly, if I am a huge Blair fan, but don’t live in his district, I need to vote for my local Labour party person to try to ensure a Labour majority in Parliment, even if I think the local Labour guy is a complete idiot and I disagree with his position on a topic. > > Also, it sounds like you are saying the politician can pick which district he wants to try to represent. Do they have to live in the district they represent for a minimum time frame or can they just move in and run for office (ala H.R. Clinton in New York)? > > Also, in America you get a lot of the “pick the lesser of two evils/idiots” talk. Does that happen there also? It’s a widly held belief (possibly not on this board though) that a ‘none of the above’ option on the ballet paper would win by a landslide… ---
**Author:** ![Planet\_of\_the\_Shapes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Planet\_of\_the\_Shapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Planet_of_the_Shapes)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/34 "2005-04-22T18:03:23Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And only one major party is playing the ‘dirty foreigners are coming to get you’ card. The Tory campaign is a damned disgrace and has had the effect of making me vote Labour to keep them out when originally my vote was going elsewhere. Me too. Although i’m in a Tory seat, and hoping my vote will help kick the sitting MP out. Although i generally don’t agree with traditional Tory policies, i recognise that there are arguments in favour of them, and i can respect that. This time though, they’re running such a dirty nasty single issue campaign i really really want to see them do badly, so they don’t try something like this again. I just hope they are enough people who feel the same way to really make a difference… ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/35 "2005-04-23T00:23:01Z")
> [@](#): > > As only wealthy people can afford the half cost then the measure is by definition helping only those people. The money is also going outside the NHS and funding private building and profits instead of staying in the NHS. Not at all. Everyone’s waiting time goes down, not just the rich. The NHS are making a net profit as they’re only spending half the money they would otherwise have to. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/36 "2005-04-23T00:38:05Z")
> [@+MDI](#): > > Not at all. Everyone’s waiting time goes down, not just the rich. The NHS are making a net profit as they’re only spending half the money they would otherwise have to. ‘Everybody’s’ wait goes down by a few hours. The rich have their waiting time go down to zero. Fair? And no, as has been pointed out earlier, the expenditure within the NHS can’t be measured simplistically in comparison to Bupa charges. Who trains doctors? Who trains nurses? Who oversees many medical advances, innovations, etc? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/37 "2005-04-23T01:59:44Z")
> [@Tuco](#): > > It’s a widly held belief (possibly not on this board though) that a ‘none of the above’ option on the ballet paper would win by a landslide… And then what? The seat remains empty until the next general election? Or would you hold a special by-election? ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/38 "2005-04-23T07:29:53Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yes, all seats are up for grabs. And you’re right, that we don’t elect the PM directly - by default, the leader of the winning party takes the post. (Theoretically it would be possible for Labour to win and for Blair to lose his seat, in which case they’d have to decide on their new leader straight away. Anyone know if anything like this has ever happened?) At the 1929 Australian Federal election the then Prime Minister, Stanley Bruce, lost his seat. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/39 "2005-04-23T07:43:00Z")
This election is indeed very boring. I live in a safe Labour seat and have little idea for whom I should vote. Hopefully there will be hustings today in the town centre. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/40 "2005-04-23T09:30:07Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Oh, and you’re also using the spending on four people to pay for one person’s healthcare… If you’re hanging around with people who can’t lay their paws on £2,500 you want to stop hanging around bus stops with scratters. Everyone who owns their own home can do this (and could easily do the £5,000) and if they don’t own their own home they’re simply not trying (although it’s a fair bet that the council house will have playstations, sky TV , £100 trainers for the ASBO kids, and mum and dad will be covered with Elizabeth Duke bling.). It’s about being grown-up and denying yourself some penny-ante treats to make sure you have a better future so it’s quite simple - lose the Nike shit and pay for an education that won’t turn your brats into morons. A decent education is £100 a week. That’s affordable. If that isn’t at least make sure you have books in the house and turn the TV off from time to time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484.md?page=3)