# English Dopers: Run-up to election, what's it like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484 "2005-04-21T21:20:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/81 "2005-04-27T21:55:07Z")
> [@Mk VII](#): > > this is an essentially dull contest, because (i) the result is in no serious doubt (ii) there are fewer ideological differences between Labour and Conservatives than ever before. Liberals haven’t formed a government in 80 years and don’t look like doing so now, nonetheless the media go along with the fiction that it is a three-horse race, or at least a two-plus-one. There’s a significant possibility that there will be a hung parliament, especially if people vote tactically. I’ll give it 10%-15%, more if Labour fare badly over Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/82 "2005-04-27T22:42:03Z")
Anybody see the Lib Dem newspaper advert a few days ago, showing the potential result on the back of a survey question something along the lines of “If the Lib Dems were capable of winning in your constituency, how would you vote?”? It put them in first place, by a majority-winning margin. It had references to the polling organisation, but I can’t find it now, to go and see if it was really a fair survey. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/83 "2005-04-27T23:08:32Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There’s a significant possibility that there will be a hung parliament . . . On that note, could somebody provide us with a brief historical account of how the Long Parliament evolved into the Rump Parliament? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/84 "2005-04-27T23:24:58Z")
after ‘Pride’s Purge’ in 1648 where soldiers physically barred certain members from entering the House and arrested some briefly, the remaining members became known as the Rump. It was forcibly disbanded by Cromwell in 1653. link to site dealing with the English Civil War:-[http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glossary/long-parliament.htm](http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glossary/long-parliament.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/85 "2005-04-28T05:31:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There’s a significant possibility that there will be a hung parliament . . . > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > On that note, could somebody provide us with a brief historical account of how the Long Parliament evolved into the Rump Parliament? 😃 > [@Mk VII](#): > > after ‘Pride’s Purge’ in 1648 where soldiers physically barred certain members from entering the House and arrested some briefly, the remaining members became known as the Rump. It was forcibly disbanded by Cromwell in 1653. > link to site dealing with the English Civil War:-[http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glossary/long-parliament.htm](http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glossary/long-parliament.htm) Oh, thank you! [reaches for a cigarette] Was it good for you, too? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/86 "2005-04-28T12:05:06Z")
Blair isn’t helped by this one bit. [Iraq legal advice](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4492439.stm) Surprised this info doesn’t have it’s own thread. Question time should be good tonight. Blair, Howard and Kennedy are on it. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/87 "2005-04-28T12:16:13Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Blair isn’t helped by this one bit. > > [Iraq legal advice](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4492439.stm) > > Surprised this info doesn’t have it’s own thread. > > Question time should be good tonight. Blair, Howard and Kennedy are on it. Yes it’s quite a big deal - all the British papaers (apart from the ones that specialise in bristols) have headlines along the lines of “Blair Lied”. (the bristols ones are banging on about the bloody Beckhams) It also gives the Tories an angle of attack - they can’t argue against the war as they voted for it - but they can claim that they supported it on the basis of a lie. I think it will also help the Libs hugely, and will encourage a greater “give Blair a bloody nose” vote. Having said that it’s still not enough to get rid of him. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/88 "2005-04-28T12:34:25Z")
> [@](#): > > It also gives the Tories an angle of attack - they can’t argue against the war as they voted for it - but they can claim that they supported it on the basis of a lie. Interesting, **owl**. You suggest that the Tories _only_ supported the war on the basis of a threat, and that if that threat was _false_ then the war was **wrong**? Tell you superiors to say this, and quickly, because the impression I and everyone else has is that the Tories didn’t give a fuck about the plausibility of the threat any more than Blair did, and supported the invasion _anyway_. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/89 "2005-04-28T12:35:57Z")
It’s hardly election-winning stuff: “Yes, we know we’ve said for years that you can’t trust Blair, but, ummmm, we did anyway, but he was lying to us, so we were tricked, and, errrrr, we’ll learn from the mistake.” ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/90 "2005-04-28T12:57:11Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Interesting, **owl**. You suggest that the Tories _only_ supported the war on the basis of a threat, and that if that threat was _false_ then the war was **wrong**? > > Tell you superiors to say this, and quickly, because the impression I and everyone else has is that the Tories didn’t give a fuck about the plausibility of the threat any more than Blair did, and supported the invasion _anyway_. I think that if Bush and Blair had simply said “Saddam is a nasty fascist and we think he should be removed - and we’d like to do it with guns”, then the Tories would have supported it. (at least that’s what I feel would have happened). For most tories the UN is a complete irrelevance, and whether the required resolutions had been passed or otherwise would have mattered not (we didn’t hang about waiting for them during the Falklands). The same goes for the “legality” or otherwise. Who’s “legality”? What are they going to do about it if they’re unhappy? (I don’t know about you but I haven’t noticed an embargo on Burgundy and smelly cheese so the French aren’t doing much about their unhappiness). However in purely electoral terms the Iraq war has been a dead area for us as we supported it so can’t make capital on it. This gives us some daylight and allows us to put both the war and the issue of TB’s trustworthiness centre stage. It is also manna from heaven for the libs. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/91 "2005-04-28T13:21:51Z")
Hmm, all that sounds like to me (and probably the majority of the electorate)is that had the Conservatives been in power they would have told us **exactly the same lies**. And the legality of international conflict, as specified by the UN Charter _to which the UK is a signatory_, rests solely on [aggression](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/) (or _imminent_ threat thereof) which clearly _was_ the case with the Falklands and Gulf War I. If the UN’s most important members _ignore_ the Charter they signed (and practically _wrote_), the “irrelevance of the UN” becomes a _self-fulfilling prophecy_. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/92 "2005-04-28T13:33:15Z")
From the legal advice > [@](#): > > 1. Finally, I must stress that the lawfulness of military action depends not > only on the existence of a legal basis, but also on the question of > proportionality. Any force used pursuant to the authorisation in resolution 678\* > (whether or not there is a second resolution): > must have as its objective the enforcement the terms of the cease-fire > contained in resolution 687 (1990) and subsequent relevant resolutions; > be limited to what is necessary to achieve that objective; and > must be a proportionate response to that objective, ie securing > compliance with Iraq’s disarmament obligations. > That is not to say that action may not be taken to remove Saddam Hussein > from power if it can be demonstrated that such action is a necessary and > proportionate measure to secure the disarmament of Iraq. **But regime change > cannot be the objective of military action. This should be borne in mind in > considering the list of military targets and in making public statements about > any campaign.** PDF of document is available in the BBC link I gave a few posts ago. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/93 "2005-04-28T13:45:54Z")
The Tories would be better positioned if they didn’t have a leader pre-discredited by his ignominious service during the Thatcher Terror. Not every voter is a goldfish. I remember those times and I remember him. MRSA got its hold in hospitals on their watch with the privatisation of NHS cleaning. I was an NHS Manager at the time so to hear him bang on about it now as if he is not collectively responsible makes me sick. I’m probably going to have to hold my nose and vote Labour because I fear the tories have a significant chance of getting in and my constituency is a marginal. I want to give Blair a bloody nose but I am sensitive to the argument that this is a vote to over-turn the good things that have been done for those less well off than me. I damn well hate the Labour Party for not chucking the lying bastard out. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/94 "2005-04-28T14:08:45Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Hmm, all that sounds like to me (and probably the majority of the electorate)is that had the Conservatives been in power they would have told us **exactly the same lies**. > > And the legality of international conflict, as specified by the UN Charter _to which the UK is a signatory_, rests solely on [aggression](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/) (or _imminent_ threat thereof) which clearly _was_ the case with the Falklands and Gulf War I. If the UN’s most important members _ignore_ the Charter they signed (and practically _wrote_), the “irrelevance of the UN” becomes a _self-fulfilling prophecy_. I think we would have simply said “He’s gotta go”, or more accurately the yanks would have said “he’s gotta go and we’re shifting him. Wanna help?” and we would have saif “Yes”. Bear in mind we wouldn’t have a back bench crammmed with powder-puff trots who have all been in CND and also wouldn’t have half the problem selling the action to the party at large. Blair’s problem is he had to lie to his own side to get the thing through and they are not in a forgiving mood. And as to the relevance of the UN - that’s for another thread (and another poster - it’s my last day today). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484/95 "2005-04-28T14:17:40Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > I think we would have simply said “He’s gotta go”, or more accurately the yanks would have said “he’s gotta go and we’re shifting him. Wanna help?” and we would have saif “Yes”. Bear in mind we wouldn’t have a back bench crammmed with powder-puff trots who have all been in CND and also wouldn’t have half the problem selling the action to the party at large. > > Blair’s problem is he had to lie to his own side to get the thing through and they are not in a forgiving mood. > > And as to the relevance of the UN - that’s for another thread (and another poster - it’s my last day today). How much more convincing that would be if Howard wasn’t responsible for propping him up in the first place. [Thatcher Propping Up Saddam](http://www.ppu.org.uk/iraq/thatcher.html) > [@](#): > > For more than a decade, yellowing paper files in a government store have hidden the story of the way £1bn of Whitehall money was thrown away in propping up Saddam Hussein’s regime and doing favours for arms firms. > > It took place when many in both the British and US administrations were covertly on President Saddam’s side. But as yet another war against the Iraqi dictator looms, what may be the final skeleton in Britain’s arms-to-Iraq cupboard has been uncovered. > > Some information about the Thatcher government’s duplicitous record in selling to Iraq emerged in the mammoth Scott inquiry of 1996. The judge found that although Conservative ministers had restricted major “sharp” arms sales to President Saddam, they had also connived at ways round Britain’s supposed neutrality. > > During Baghdad’s prolonged and bloody invasion of Iran in the 1980s, the inquiry discovered, officials shredded documents after deliberately smuggling Chieftain tank hulls made by the then royal ordnance factories to Iraq via Jordan. > > Ministers secretly “relaxed” official guidelines to help private companies sell machine tools to build munitions factories. The judge discovered they had also abused lines of credit meant for civil development trade deals in Iraq, to include military sales. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-dopers-run-up-to-election-whats-it-like/300484.md?page=4)