# English Grammar: Would you say “take as a given” or “take it as a given” in the following sentence?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 2, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090 "2015-05-02T11:08:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Melia\_Antiqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melia_Antiqua)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/1 "2015-05-02T11:08:00Z")
I wonder if I should have the pronoun “it” serve as a placeholder for the objective clause that follows?
Woman: “Even if any of them don’t agree with the plan, I can at least count on Oliver giving me full support.”
Man: “So you **take as a given that** he is there for you?”
– or –
Man: “So you **take it as a given that** he is there for you?”
Woman: “Well, wouldn’t he?”
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/2 "2015-05-02T12:16:46Z")
I’m not a professional, but have been speaking American English for 50+ years and I read a lot of both American and British English.
In my opinion “take it as a given” is more natural American. While “take it as given” feels more like natural British.
Overall the entire dialog sounds a bit stilted and forced. A native speaker would usually choose a shorter less formal structure. But that may not match the style you’re teaching / being taught.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/3 "2015-05-02T12:48:45Z")
The idiom, at least in America, is **take it as given**. No indefinite article. “Given” is acting as a verbal adjective, not a noun.
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### Author:  [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/4 "2015-05-02T12:52:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> The idiom, at least in America, is **take it as given**. No indefinite article.
Same in the UK.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/5 "2015-05-02T14:48:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> I’m not a professional, but have been speaking American English for 50+ years and I read a lot of both American and British English.
>
> In my opinion “take it as a given” is more natural American. While “take it as given” feels more like natural British.
>
> Overall the entire dialog sounds a bit stilted and forced. A native speaker would usually choose a shorter less formal structure. But that may not match the style you’re teaching / being taught.
:smack::smack: I now realize I totally screwed up my examples and said something totally different from what I meant. Oops. Try this instead:
In my opinion “take \*\*it \*\*as a given” is more natural American. While “take **[]** as a given” feels more like natural British.
IOW, the difference I meant to highlight is the presence or absence of “it”, not “a”. IMO, presence of “it” is more American and absence of “it” is more British.
As a separate matter I agree with the other posters that “a given” sounds stilted in either American or British. Just plain “given” is better. So the final outcome is this:
In my opinion “take \*\*it \*\*as **[]** given” is the best most natural American. While “take **[]** as **[]** given” is the best most natural British.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/6 "2015-05-02T14:52:10Z")
Either could work but “take it as a given” would be both more usual and more correct.
And as others have noted, you could use either “given” or “a given”. I’d be more likely to use “a given” myself.
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### Author:  [@Ann12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann12)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/7 "2015-05-02T15:09:57Z")
Acsenray and the Baron are right.
The expression is “take it as given.”
It means "take it as ‘Given’ "
“Given” is a phrase from (especially) geometric proofs, where some fact is considered true because it is “given” – a pre-existing part of the problem,
a statement held to be true without proof, since it is given in the structure of the problem itself.
So it means that the assertion can be assumed to be true without any proof.
\> You can take it as given that lawyers are made by the devil.
\> You can take it as given that astronauts must have a great deal of courage.
\> I will never go there again, and you can take that as given!
Naturally the assertion does not have to be actually true. The statement is the opinion of the speaker – not a claim of mathematical proof or scientific evidence.
In some high-stakes circumstances, very little may be taken as “given.”
For example, certain facts presented to juries may not be entered into evidence without a showing of their accuracy.
As a side note, in Napoleonic law, the judge may refer to the accused as “the murderer” – which is coming a little close to
“You can take it as given that this guy did it.”
Another phrase in the pattern of “Take it as given” is “Take it as read.”
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### Author:  [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/8 "2015-05-02T17:31:43Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> :smack::smack: I now realize I totally screwed up my examples and said something totally different from what I meant. Oops. Try this instead:
>
> In my opinion “take \*\*it \*\*as a given” is more natural American. While “take **[]** as a given” feels more like natural British.
>
> IOW, the difference I meant to highlight is the presence or absence of “it”, not “a”. IMO, presence of “it” is more American and absence of “it” is more British.
>
> As a separate matter I agree with the other posters that “a given” sounds stilted in either American or British. Just plain “given” is better. So the final outcome is this:
>
> In my opinion “take \*\*it \*\*as **[]** given” is the best most natural American. While “take **[]** as **[]** given” is the best most natural British.
I’m British, and totally disagree with you. We would use ‘it’ as well.
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### Author:  [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/9 "2015-05-03T14:33:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Either could work but “take it as a given” would be both more usual and more correct.
>
> And as others have noted, you could use either “given” or “a given”. I’d be more likely to use “a given” myself.
Yes. “A given” sounds a lot more natural than just “given.” Since it’s dialogue the goal is to make it sound like something people really say… so unless it’s someone really upper crust, they’d stick the “a” in there.
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### Author:  [@jepflast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jepflast)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/10 "2015-05-04T06:11:42Z")
Interesting. I’ve never heard “take it as given”, without the “a”. It’s probably a regional thing. I also immediately thought of a song lyric that states it as “take it for given”, but this must not be a common rendering because a search for that literal phrase comes up with that particular song but nothing much else relevant.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/11 "2015-05-04T12:15:10Z")
> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> Yes. “A given” sounds a lot more natural than just “given.” Since it’s dialogue the goal is to make it sound like something people really say… so unless it’s someone really upper crust, they’d stick the “a” in there.
Upper crust? That doesn’t to me to be a factor in America. I can’t recall anyone using the “a.”
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### Author:  [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-grammar-would-you-say-take-as-a-given-or-take-it-as-a-given-in-the-following-sentence/719090/12 "2015-05-04T12:48:31Z")
I don’t think it matters all that much but “take as given” is far less common than the usual phrase “taken as given” and so either choice would seem clumsy and prone to disrupting the reader.
Likewise the previous sentence has an odd construction. What does the phrase "Even if any of them don’t agree with the plan,"mean? “Even if none of them agrees with plan,” or perhaps “Even if [any] one of them doesn’t agree with the plan.”