# English Major Needed! Who or Whom Phrasing **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 13, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875 "2019-05-13T00:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/1 "2019-05-13T00:23:05Z")
How should this sentence read? Please correct, if needed: “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.” ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/2 "2019-05-13T00:46:29Z")
It should be who, not whom. But I’m not a grammarian and can’t explain why. I just intuitively know. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/3 "2019-05-13T00:50:23Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > How should this sentence read? Please correct, if needed: “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.” Perhaps a comma before “whom”? (and it should be “whom”, no question) Got to ask those English majors… ETA I’m no grammarian either, but “whom” is a pronoun that stands for an indirect object (dative) or direct object (accusative) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/4 "2019-05-13T00:53:46Z")
Agree with **DPRK** (though IANAEM). “Whom,” because it’s the object of the verb “to thank.” If you had said, “I wish to thank many people who helped me,” “who” would be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/5 "2019-05-13T01:29:31Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > How should this sentence read? Please correct, if needed: “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.” “I had help from many people. I wish to thank them.”—not “I wish to thank they.” “I had help from many people; them I wish to thank.”—not “they I wish to thank.” “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.”—not “who I wish to thank,” except in spoken English, where “who” and “whom” have collapsed together. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/6 "2019-05-13T02:19:10Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Perhaps a comma before “whom”? Yes, assuming you wish to thank _ **all** _ of the people who have helped. In other words, there aren’t any people who helped and whom, for whatever reason, you don’t want to thank, so you don’t want a restrictive adjective clause here. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/7 "2019-05-13T03:40:54Z")
“I had help from many people **that** I wish to thank.” ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/8 "2019-05-13T04:02:15Z")
> [@glee](#): > > “I had help from many people **that** I wish to thank.” Bzzzzzzzz. This is one of my pet peeves. “That” in no way is acceptable here, and people do this constantly. ETA: It’s either who or whom. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/9 "2019-05-13T05:51:48Z")
Rephrasing is generally a good option. Otherwise, one could apply a trick I learned eons ago in a writing workshop: ask the related “who” question, and if the answer is him/her/them, then “whom” is correct. In this instance: **Who do you wish to thank?** I wish to thank _them_. By this test, “whom” is correct. IANAEM. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/10 "2019-05-13T05:55:12Z")
Same as CairoCarol, except I use singular. “I wish to thank her.” So, use whom. (If rephrasing works with “she” then use who. Obvs not the case here.) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/11 "2019-05-13T07:42:45Z")
Yes, **CairoCarol** (and others) have the correct answer. One complication is “descriptivism”: The use of ‘who’ where ‘whom’ is correct is quite common. Eventually it will become “correct” by definition — English grammars and dictionaries describe how English _is_ used, not how it should or might be used. But the substitution of ‘who’ for ‘whom’ hasn’t reached that status yet. Pro-tip: If unsure whether to use ‘who’ or ‘whom’ use ‘who.’ Sneer and say “I’m a descriptivist” if anyone complains. Using ‘whom’ where ‘who’ is correct makes one sound like an ostentatious imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/12 "2019-05-13T08:02:54Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Bzzzzzzzz. This is one of my pet peeves. “That” in no way is acceptable here, and people do this constantly. It’s acceptable if the adjective clause is restrictive, but I think we can assume that it isn’t, (that is, that the OP wishes to thank all the people who helped). ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/13 "2019-05-13T08:04:43Z")
> [@glee](#): > > “I had help from many people **that** I wish to thank.” This kind of rephrasing may arrive at a “solution,” but that doesn’t help us to understand the original issue in question, so it’s really just copping out, or evading the real point of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/14 "2019-05-13T10:49:12Z")
Don’t rephrase just because you don’t know what’s correct. Rephrase if you have created an awkward phrase that is ambiguous or that the reader will trip over. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/15 "2019-05-13T11:02:50Z")
> [@glee](#): > > “I had help from many people **that** I wish to thank.” _ **ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!** _ People are people, not things. This was drilled into my brain by my 12th grade English teacher, Miss Morris. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/16 "2019-05-13T12:49:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > One complication is “descriptivism”: The use of ‘who’ where ‘whom’ is correct is quite common. Eventually it will become “correct” by definition — English grammars and dictionaries describe how English _is_ used, not how it should or might be used. But the substitution of ‘who’ for ‘whom’ hasn’t reached that status yet. > > Pro-tip: If unsure whether to use ‘who’ or ‘whom’ use ‘who.’ Sneer and say “I’m a descriptivist” if anyone complains. Using ‘whom’ where ‘who’ is correct makes one sound like an ostentatious imbecile. I think I remember seeing this advice in a grammar book when I was in high school, back in the early 80s. It’s a lot closer to okay to use “who” where “whom” is technically correct than the other way around. But in the OP’s example, I do think that “whom” is not only correct but makes the sentence clearer and easier to parse (which is always a goal of good writing). If you say “I had help from many people who…” you set me up to expect that you’re going to tell me what those people did. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/17 "2019-05-13T12:53:30Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > How should this sentence read? Please correct, if needed: “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.” This is correct. “I wish to thank them” —\> “whom I wish to thank.” It’s the object of the subordinate clause, so “whom” is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/18 "2019-05-13T12:56:36Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > How should this sentence read? Please correct, if needed: “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.” > [@Leaffan](#): > > It should be who, not whom. But I’m not a grammarian and can’t explain why. I just intuitively know. Your intuition is wrong, unless you are talking about a dialect that has eliminated “whom” entirely, which is common in contemporary English. But if you’re talking about traditional grammar, “whom” is correct in the OP’s example. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/19 "2019-05-13T13:35:43Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > _ **ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!** _ People are people, not things. This was drilled into my brain by my 12th grade English teacher, Miss Morris. You can refer Miss Morris to post #12, (and someone should have taken that drill away from her). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/20 "2019-05-13T13:36:56Z")
It’s a bit of a mess because “to thank” is, itself, serving as the object of the verb “wish” in an adjective clause modifying the object of the prepositional phrase “from many people”. But I think it’s “whom”. For it to be “who” it needs to be the subject of a clause or a compliment of a linking verb, and it’s certainly not either of those. But it does seem to function as the object of “thank”. ETA: I learned virtually no grammar as an English major. “English” is usually “Literature” and sometimes “Rhetoric”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875.md?page=2)