# English Major Needed! Who or Whom Phrasing **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 13, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875 "2019-05-13T00:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/61 "2019-05-24T11:17:54Z")
While commas do not necessarily correspond with pauses, I tend to hear this much more often the other direction, where people will pause in a place a comma would be nonstandard. When going the other direction, the commas usually disappear over time. Styles which require more commas seem older than ones that allow then to disappear along with speech. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/62 "2019-05-25T01:37:06Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > How should this sentence read? Please correct, if needed: “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.” Two Options: “I had help from many people whom I wish to thank.” “I had help from many people I wish to thank.” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/63 "2019-05-26T11:13:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > PS - Media and data are both plural nouns… Is this a joke? I thought data was a mass noun, like water. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/64 "2019-05-26T13:29:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Is this a joke? I thought data was a mass noun, like water. Medium - media Datum - data It’s iruginally a plural count noun. It’s current status is ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/65 "2019-05-26T15:35:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Medium - media > Datum - data > > It’s iruginally a plural count noun. It’s current status is ambiguous. If I saw someone write ‘two data’ instead of ‘two pieces of data’, I’d assume they weren’t a native speaker… Don’t see how it can be ambiguous, whatever it meant originally. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/66 "2019-05-26T15:42:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If I saw someone write ‘two data’ instead of ‘two pieces of data’, I’d assume they weren’t a native speaker… Don’t see how it can be ambiguous, whatever it meant originally. How about, “ED50 and WGS84 are two [geodetic] data which differ by a few hundred meters in Europe” ? No pieces involved. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/67 "2019-05-26T16:29:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Medium - media > Datum - data > > It’s iruginally a plural count noun. It’s current status is ambiguous. Yes–from copora of current NA English (written, spoken, formal, informal, academic, fiction, etc.), the word _data_ is construed as plural about 2/3 of the time, and singular about 1/3 of the time. The plural usage is concentrated in academic print, while the singular usage is concentrated in speech, as well as magazines and newspapers, (which at times are quotations of speech), though not exclusively. Just as an example, here is a quote from _Scientific American_, May 3, 2017, in which _data_ is construed as singular: > [@SA](#): > > Data through Feb. 26 – the last date for which data **is** available – show there were 6,045 record highs to only 112 record lows. That puts the ratio at 53-to-1, making it the most lopsided month on record. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/68 "2019-05-26T16:40:02Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Just as an example, here is a quote from _Scientific American_, May 3, 2017, . . . Sorry, that should be March 5, 2017. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/69 "2019-05-26T16:54:50Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > How about, “ED50 and WGS84 are two [geodetic] data which differ by a few hundred meters in Europe” ? > > No pieces involved. That brings back some memories. I don’t recall if I ever saw ‘datum’ pluralised like that when I worked with those coordinate systems, and your sentence still sounds wrong to me, although I could imagine someone writing it. I’d prefer ‘datums’, which I’m sure grammarians would object to. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/70 "2019-05-26T16:57:24Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Yes–from copora of current NA English (written, spoken, formal, informal, academic, fiction, etc.), the word _data_ is construed as plural about 2/3 of the time, and singular about 1/3 of the time. The plural usage is concentrated in academic print, while the singular usage is concentrated in speech, as well as magazines and newspapers, (which at times are quotations of speech), though not exclusively. Are there examples like the one \*\*DPRK \*\*came up with, where ‘data’ is used with a number? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/71 "2019-05-26T17:19:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Are there examples like the one \*\*DPRK \*\*came up with, where ‘data’ is used with a number? It apparently is plural, but not a true count noun, at least according to [this source](https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/is-data-singular-or-plural?page=2). > [@](#): > > ‡It should be noted that some usage scholars, while acknowledging that data can be used as a plural, do not view data as a true plural count noun (1). This is because plural data fails the number test. A distinguishing feature of count nouns is that they can be modified by a cardinal number (one, two, three, etc.), as in one chair, two mountains, three bottles, etc. **Data, on the other hand, cannot be used after a cardinal number (two data is not grammatical).** Despite this debate, however, all agree that plural data, whether a count noun or not, still requires the same plural agreements (are, these, many, etc.). This reflects my experience. “Two data” sounds horribly ungrammatical to my ears. I do see there is a usage mentioned above, but it still awkward and un-English to me. ETA: Furthermore, regarding “datums”: > [@](#): > > §The singular count noun datum is not as common as data, but it is used frequently in academic, scientific, and technical writing. Listener Gabriel from Los Angeles left a voicemail asking about data and warned that before we declare datum dead, we should know that he encounters it frequently in his work in fluid mechanics and with topographical maps. In some disciplines, like geodesy, the plural datums is used instead of data. Other fields completely avoid the singular/plural data question by combining data with other words to make them unquestionably count nouns, as in data point or data set. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/72 "2019-05-26T17:20:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Are there examples like the one \*\*DPRK \*\*came up with, where ‘data’ is used with a number? I don’t have time to do a complete search, but just from a quick initial look, collocating with _two_, I can only find one (out of the first 100), from Military History magazine (2002, p. 10), (“An historical theory of intelligence”): > [@Military History](#): > > While intelligence is necessary to the defense, it is only contingent to the offense. The validity of this principle is demonstrated, I believe, by two data. One is the relative frequency in history of defensive intelligence successes over offensive ones. Everything else comes with counters, such as “two data points,” or “two data sets,” etc. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/73 "2019-05-26T17:42:24Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I can only find one . . . Actually, three. Another in \*Shakespeare Quarterly \*(2016), and another spoken on CNN in 2006. So three out of 100 with “two data.” It does happen, but the rarity is probably why it would sound strange, as **pulykamell** mentions. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/74 "2019-05-26T17:51:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It apparently is plural, but not a true count noun. That explains it, and the fact **guizot** could find very few examples seems to confirm what they say. > [@pulykamell](#): > > In some disciplines, like geodesy, the plural datums is used instead of data. And that explains why ‘datums’ sounded better to me in that context. Must have remembered it subconsciously. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875/75 "2019-05-26T23:41:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I do see there is a usage mentioned above, but it still awkward and un-English to me. Heh. \ ***It’s** still awkward and un-English to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-major-needed-who-or-whom-phrasing/833875.md?page=3)