# english names for european towns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067 "2003-11-19T10:26:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/1 "2003-11-19T10:26:05Z")
Who came up with the english names for european towns? And why? Examples: Nuremberg (=Nürnberg) Munich (=München) Vienna (=Wien) Geneva (=Genf) ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/2 "2003-11-19T11:03:13Z")
No one person, obviously. WAG: The names originated as more or less hamfisted attempts by English-speaking traders to copy the name as spoken by the natives. These names then got taken back to England and slowly corrupted - we Brits love to mangle foreign tongues. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/3 "2003-11-19T11:12:43Z")
You should see how we english anglicized Irish placenames. I think when they were going round taking place names, if the couldn’t spell it they made it up! ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/4 "2003-11-19T11:25:19Z")
Here’s a cite for my last post which actually explains how the irish placenames got mangled into english [http://www.intercelt.com/loganimneacha/loganimneacha.htm](http://www.intercelt.com/loganimneacha/loganimneacha.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/5 "2003-11-19T11:26:43Z")
A number of things bring about the difference. You got to realize that these names have gone through hundreds of years of simultaneous use in both the home country and abroad. Language changes in both countries can change how the city is pronounced and hence written, but not necessarily in the same direction. Accented vowels don’t exist in written English, so they get printed and written without them. This in turn influences how English speakers pronounce them, which in turn changes how they are spelt in future. Some sounds don’t exist in the average English vocabulary. So they get approximated by English speakers, which in turn changes how the word is spelt. Combined and over time this results in different names for the same city. You can see an evidence of this even within different dialects of English. The Scottish city of Edinburgh is pronounced by natives “Edinbruh”. The city of Pittsburgh was founded by a Scot, who almost certainly wanted it pronounced similarly. But due to other influences and changes to the American dialect it is now pronounced “Pittsburg”. Meanwhile, Americans pronounce Edinburgh today as “Edinboro” and sometime even spell it that way too. ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/6 "2003-11-19T11:58:41Z")
There are some german versions of italian places, too. But generally I belive, that in most languages foreign towns are just pronounced differently (according to the languages rules) but the spelling is kept. But english frequently alters the entire name. Really just because of the umlauts? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/7 "2003-11-19T12:36:10Z")
A few other corruptions, not easily explained as a change in pronunciation: Moscow (from Moskva) The Hague (rather than just ‘Hague’) Naples (Napoli) Turin (Torino) Florence (Firenze) Venice (Venezia) ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/8 "2003-11-19T12:36:10Z")
I wanna know why we cale Die Haag “The Hague.” What’s a hague? Is there an English meaning? That seems just meddlesome for its own sake! ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/9 "2003-11-19T12:51:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by T. Mehr \* > **But english frequently alters the entire name.** I think this assertion could really be applied to any language - Londres for London, for example, or L’Angletterre and L’Allemagne. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/10 "2003-11-19T12:52:32Z")
The Hague was chosen as a name by the Dutch for the English, after the last English-Dutch war, to eternally mess with their heads. We’re succeeding. 😉 There are pedants who dispute this story and say it is a rendering of Den Haag, which literally means The Hedge (shrubbery that separates two plots of land). The full name is actually 's Gravenhage (The Hedge of the Counts). But who wants to listen to pedants? Pedants would furthermore say that ‘Haag’ actually comes from ‘Haga’ meaning forest or enclosed/bounded area. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/11 "2003-11-19T12:54:04Z")
For ‘for’, read ‘for use by’. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/12 "2003-11-19T13:08:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GorillaMan \* > \*\*A few other corruptions, not easily explained as a change in pronunciation: > > Moscow (from Moskva) > The Hague (rather than just ‘Hague’) > Naples (Napoli) > Turin (Torino) > Florence (Firenze) > Venice (Venezia) \*\* You forgot my favourite. **Livorno =\> Leghorn**. Ah say, ah say boy… ---
**Author:** ![milk\_milk\_lemonade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@milk\_milk\_lemonade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milk_milk_lemonade)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/13 "2003-11-19T13:23:24Z")
How about these Welsh / English place names: Abertawe = Swansea Denby Am Pysgod = Tenby ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/14 "2003-11-19T13:46:35Z")
> [@](#): > > You forgot my favourite. > Livorno =\> Leghorn. Ah say, ah say boy… The leghorn breed was of course named after the port of Livorno. In Italy they call him “Fugorno Livorno” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/15 "2003-11-19T14:26:05Z")
When it comes to some German places, it seems that English speakers have often preferred to use French place names. For example, Aix-la-Chapelle instead of Aachen, and Cologne instead of Koeln. You can still also find Treves on old maps (instead of Trier). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/16 "2003-11-19T14:40:17Z")
Once again I have to object to the needless use of the derogatory term “corruption.” Every language has its own rules. Every language has its own words for other places and other people. That’s how language works. In recent decades, Europeans have started eliminating such differences intentionally, but that is not the natural state of things. Before you start acting superior for your knowledge of the “correct” names of places, take a look at history. You’ll find that names like “Wien” and “Köln” are no more “original” than “Vienna” and “Cologne.” Both sets of names are “corrupted” (your word, not mine) versions of “Vindobona” and “Colonia Agrippina.” “Geneva” is a corruption of “Genf”? Have you ever seen the word “Genève”? A form like “Moscow” is the result of the peculiar ignorance or stubbornness of the English? “Moscow” comes from the German form “Moskau.” Get off your high horses, folks. ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/17 "2003-11-19T15:30:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **acsenray** _ > Get off your high horses, folks. It’s not a question of right or wrong, but of _what’s the point._ Afterall New York is New York all over the world (or is it not?). Nobody says Neu York, but The Hague instead of Den Haag. One would expect that things are easier when everyone talking about the same place would use the same name. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/18 "2003-11-19T15:34:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by T. Mehr \* > \*\*Afterall New York is New York all over the world (or is it not?). \*\* No, Irish speakers call it Nua Eabhrac. I’m sure there are other variations. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/19 "2003-11-19T15:34:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Futile Gesture \* > \*\*Meanwhile, Americans pronounce Edinburgh today as “Edinboro” and sometime even spell it that way too. \*\* We do? I’ve always said “edinburgh” Then again, the number of times Edinburgh has come up in conversation for me are few, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/20 "2003-11-19T15:34:10Z")
The corruption of place names to suit your own language or just out of pure ignorance is nothing new. The Romans never seemed to be bothered by the fact that the Greeks referred to their own country as “Hellas”, and not “Greece”. The city that the Romans called “Carthago”, and which we call “Carthage”, was known to its own inhabitants as “Kart-hadasht”. The same thing happens with personal names. Ioannes = Johan = Ivan = Juan = Jean = John, etc. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067.md?page=2)