# english names for european towns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067 "2003-11-19T10:26:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/21 "2003-11-19T16:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > what’s the point The point is that different people have different ways of saying things. That is a fundamental reality of human language. People say things differently, so languages that people use say things differently. When it comes to names for things, there is no “correct” or “original.” And, frankly, to me this is a virtue of human language. It creates a flexibility and diversity that we can learn from and enjoy. > [@](#): > > Afterall New York is New York all over the world (or is it not?). No, Spanish language broadcasts in the United States refer to it as “Nueva York.” My German textbook referred to it as “Neujork.” > [@](#): > > One would expect that things are easier when everyone talking about the same place would use the same name. Oh, yes, things would be much easier if everyone did everything exactly the same way. We should speak one language, even. On the other hand, we could learn to live with the fact that things aren’t always the same. It’s not that hard. In fact, humans have been dealing with it since the beginning. Things would be easier if everyone just listened to me. > [@](#): > > or just out of pure ignorance :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/22 "2003-11-19T16:55:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*No, Irish speakers call it Nua Eabhrac. I’m sure there are other variations. \*\* And in Polish it’s Nowy Jork. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/23 "2003-11-19T17:07:11Z")
If your confused about those, try some Hungarian equivalents: Pozsony = Bratislava Olaszorszag = Italy Becs = Vienna Parkany = Sturovo (a town in Slovakia) Kolozsvar = Cluj-Napoca (Romania) (I’ve omitted the appropriate accents, but you get the point.) Lake Balaton in Hungary is known as Plattensee to the Germans. In Polish, Rome is Rzym, pronounced something like “Zhim.” Italy is “Wlochy” (with a slash through that “l”) It’s all nuts. Some have simple explanations, like border towns having different names depending on which nationality you’re talking to, others are historical names, and others I have no clue whence they came. ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/24 "2003-11-19T17:31:46Z")
I was going to say that New York was never called Neu Jork or Neu York in German, but after a quick check in some older books I found out that I was wrong. Still neither I nor my parents have ever heard it. So I don’t think it was was used very much after World War II. **acsenray** , when was your texbook printed? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/25 "2003-11-19T17:51:01Z")
Folks, let’s not forget that most all American place names have been on the international scene for a relatively short amount of time – less than 250 years. And nearly 100 of those 250 years have been subject to the language-change-retarding affects of global mass communication. It makes perfect sense that, _very generally_, most places in America would be pretty much called what they are called in America (within reasonable linguistic bounds). Now, if the USA were a 1200-year-old nation, its place names would have had over a millenium of time to shift in other languages. Not to mention what would have happened to American place names had portions of the US changed hands from this power to that power over the centuries. Think about the way European history has gone down. Compare that to the course of US history. That’s a big part of the OP’s answer. ---
**Author:** ![5cents](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/46a35a/32.png) [@5cents](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5cents)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/26 "2003-11-19T18:44:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by T. Mehr \* > \*\*There are some german versions of italian places, too. But generally I belive, that in most languages foreign towns are just pronounced differently (according to the languages rules) but the spelling is kept. But english frequently alters the entire name. Really just because of the umlauts? \*\* Uh, I don’t think so. Check out (no pun intended) some German versions of Czech place names: Czech -\> German Plzen -\> Pilsen Praha -\> Prag Ceske Budejovice -\> Budweis Karlovy Vary -\> Carlsbad There are a zillion others. Some of these are probably just translations of the sound (Plzen -\> Pilsen), others are translations of the meaning (Karlovy Vary means “Charles Bath”, named after the local hot springs used by Emperor Charles, which in German is Carls Bad). Note that a large American company has really screwed things up by naming their beer “Budweiser”. First of all, the German “W” is pronounced like the English “V”. Second, Budweiser bears no resemblance to beer that is actually brewed in Budweis. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/27 "2003-11-19T19:32:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5cents \* > \*\* > Karlovy Vary -\> Carlsbad > > \*\* Mmm, Becherovka. Hrvatska -\> Croatia (which explains why the cars with ‘HR’ stickers on the bumper are not from Hungary, er, I mean Magyarorszag.) I was in Zagreb when the Croatian football team played Scotia, not Scotland. Going on a tangent, what about the names of border towns? I’m thinking of El Paso and Juarez, separated by only the Rio Grande (or is it the Rio Bravo?), having different names, but Nogales, Arizona and Nogales, Sonora having the same name. For cities separated by a border, is it more common to have the same name or different names? ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/28 "2003-11-19T19:45:58Z")
**Dag Otto** , I would imaginge that Nogales was one city which found itself split in two by the imposition of the international border along the Rio (just a guess, I could be wrong). As far as I know, El Paso and Juárez were always distinct from one another. Two separate towns that bumped up against one another as they grew. I’ll have to look up some local history in order to verify this, though. I know that some parts of town switched “jurisdiction” at some point when the course of the Rio changed. ---
**Author:** ![5cents](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/46a35a/32.png) [@5cents](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5cents)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/29 "2003-11-19T20:07:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dag Otto \* > **Mmm, Becherovka.** Mmm, Becherovka. Translation: for medicinal purposes only 😉[Becherovka Original](http://www.becherovka.cz/en/index2.php) Made in Carlsbad! (oops, Karlovy Vary) > [@](#): > > \*\* > For cities separated by a border, is it more common to have the same name or different names? \*\* Beats me. Now where did I put that shot glass? ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/30 "2003-11-19T20:34:36Z")
The use of own-language versions for foreign place names seems to be on the decline, though. This [translation of the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/westphal.htm) which, judging from the style of the English text, seems to be contemporary or at least no later that 18th century, uses a lot of anglicised place/region/river names that are not in use today. Other examples: The English name Frankfort for Frankfurt, and the German name Neu-York for New York, are no longer used. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/31 "2003-11-19T20:39:45Z")
Ditto mmm Becherovka. Oh, and there’s so many more. Even place names within the same country sometimes go by different names depending on what side of the railroad tracks you come from: Bruges/Brugge Brussel/Bruxelles Derry/Londonderry Kosova/Kosovo Luzern/Lucerne I’m sure there’s better ones out there. Also, some more German examples: Danzig/Gdansk Auschwitz/Oświęcim Birkenau/Brzezinka Fünfkirchen/Pecs (Hungary) And, not wholly on topic, but I’ve always wanted to share this, the town of Mikhaylovgrad, Bulgaria, a rather large city by Bulgarian standards, changed its name to … Montana. Maybe there’s a prosaic explanation of why, but I found it kind of humorous in a surreal way. We were driving through Bulgaria to Macedonia and I read on my outdated map “Mikhaylovgard.” Instead, I’m greeted by a “Welcome to Montana” sign (in Bulgarian). You had to be there. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/32 "2003-11-19T23:23:19Z")
in an era when most people couldn’t read, they relied on their recollection of how somebody who had been there pronounced it (if he recalled it well enough) and then converted in into a form which sounded euphonious in their language. Until spelling crystallised in the 18th c. most people spelled words pretty much how they wanted to, and even different ways as the humor took them. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/33 "2003-11-19T23:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by acsenray \* > \*\*Once again I have to object to the needless use of the derogatory term “corruption.” … > > Before you start acting superior for your knowledge of the “correct” names of places, take a look at history. …\*\* I was using the term in an etymological sense - no superiority or ‘correctness’ implied or intended. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/34 "2003-11-20T00:17:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kizarvexius \* > \*\ ***Dag Otto** , I would imaginge that Nogales was one city which found itself split in two by the imposition of the international border along the Rio (just a guess, I could be wrong). > > As far as I know, El Paso and Juárez were always distinct from one another. Two separate towns that bumped up against one another as they grew. I’ll have to look up some local history in order to verify this, though. I know that some parts of town switched “jurisdiction” at some point when the course of the Rio changed. \*\* Nice to see someone from my neck of the…tumbleweeds. “El Paso del Norte” was founded in the 1600’s around what is now the cathedral in central Juarez. In the early 1800’s a few people from south of the river began to homestead in what is now downtown El Paso. When the international border was set along the Rio Grande in 1848, this northern outpost became the nucleus of El Paso, TX. Juarez was renamed in 1888. The Chamizal area was switched over from around 1963 to 1967. I think the reverse happened in Laredo/Nuevo Laredo, where the main part of the old town ended up on the Texas side, and the southern bank grew into “Nuevo Laredo”. * * * Most English names of European cities seem to be adapted via the French. Perhaps this is due to the Norman’s language being seen as more of a “cultured” language, therefore it was used to name foreign cities. After all, who would have travelled abroad more in the Middle Ages, regular peasants and yeomen, or nobles and clergy? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/35 "2003-11-20T01:52:26Z")
As far as cross-border towns with the same name, this is unheard of in Europe and is fairly rare in North America. For international ones, besides Nogales, there’s Sault Ste. Marie ON/MI and Niagara Falls NY/ON and that’s about it. There’s more at the state/provincial level, but even those aren’t all that common. In the US, there’s Kansas City KS/MO, Texarkana TX/AR, Bristol TN/VA, Bluefield VA/WV, Union City IN/OH, and Delmar DE/MD plus a handful of smaller ones. In Canada, Lloydminster AB/SK has a unique arrangement in that it is a single city with a single government and the whole thing is considered part of both provinces. The two provincial parliaments passed nearly identical laws on the same day to set this up. As far as I know, this arrangement is not duplicated anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/36 "2003-11-20T10:33:15Z")
Nua Eabhrac, Nueva York, Nowy Jork,… I have to admit, I was not aware of this. And thinking about it, while it’s not Neu York in german it’s _Neuseeland_ instead of New Zealand. So obviously it’s not a particulary english thing. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/37 "2003-11-20T12:32:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by T. Mehr \* > \*\*Nua Eabhrac, Nueva York, Nowy Jork,… > I have to admit, I was not aware of this. > \*\* Nua Eabhrac is closer to the original than New York; the progression is likely to have been Ebor Eboracum **Eburacum** Eforwic Yorvik Yorrke York (taken to the new world as an alternative name for New Amsterdam) New York * * * SF worldbuilding at [http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html](http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html) ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/38 "2003-11-20T13:29:58Z")
The funny thing about Livorno/Leghorn is that the only people who now call it Leghorn are Italians trying to be helpful! In English its Livorno again! ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/39 "2003-11-20T15:54:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pulykamell \* > Italy is “Wlochy” (with a slash through that “l”) That makes perfect sense if one has any knowledge of history at all. _Włochy_ obviously is descended from the Germanic _walh_ and _walch_, both of which could mean “foreigner” in general or “Roman” in the particular. Hence “Wallachia” as the name for the Romance-speaking part of the Balkans (it wasn’t “Romania” until the 19th century–first documented appearance in English in 1860 according to the OED). ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/40 "2003-11-20T16:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Dogface** \* > That makes perfect sense if one has any knowledge of history at all. Any knowledge of history at all! :smack: I freely admit I haven’t heard of _Wallachia_ before… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067.md?page=3)