# english names for european towns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067 "2003-11-19T10:26:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/41 "2003-11-20T16:38:41Z")
Romania was created by the union of the two provinces of Wallachia and Moldavia. Wallachia is derived from “Vlach,” which, pre-Romania, was, as **Dogface** said, the common term for Romanian-speaking people in the Balkans. (Dracula was a prince of Wallachia, I believe.) You can kind of picture the Wallachia-Moldavia union if you look at a map of modern Romania and subtract the Black Sea coast (the Dobruja) and Transylvania. You end up with a reverse-L shaped territory. Wallachia is the east-west leg in the south and Moldavia is the north-south leg in the west. (Moldavia should not be confused with the modern state of Moldova (Bessarabia), which, although claimed to be the western half of Moldavia, was incorporated into Romania only under the Nazis.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/42 "2003-11-20T16:46:45Z")
Crap. I screwed up. When I say “western leg,” I, of course, mean the eastern leg. And Bessarabia is the eastern part of Moldavia. And I think I’m wrong about when Bessarabia was incorporated into Romania. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/43 "2003-11-20T16:55:33Z")
And apparently a lot of Moldovans object to the distinction made in English between Moldavia in Romania and their state of Moldova. They wish to be referred to as the “Republic of Moldavia” in English to emphasize that they are intentionally using the same name. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/44 "2003-11-20T17:16:09Z")
Thanks, **syncrolecyne**. You saved me the trouble. Yes, you’re quite right that Juárez was renamed. Now what about Anthony? It straddles the Texas/New Mexico border and, AFAIK, has to have a separate government for each side. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/45 "2003-11-20T20:14:15Z")
As an addition, at present, the Anglosphere can claim right of conquest/liberation. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/46 "2003-11-21T07:57:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kizarvexius \* > Now what about Anthony? It straddles the Texas/New Mexico border and, AFAIK, has to have a separate government for each side. The list I gave was not all places, but rather only the larger ones. It also only included places with incorporated municipalities on both sides of the border. In the case of Anthony, both places are not incorporated. Anthony TX is an incorporated town; Anthony NM is not, at least as of the last census. ---
**Author:** ![Lars\_Aruns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@Lars\_Aruns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lars_Aruns)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/47 "2003-11-21T12:08:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*That makes perfect sense if one has any knowledge of history at all. _Włochy_ obviously is descended from the Germanic _walh_ and _walch_, both of which could mean “foreigner” in general or “Roman” in the particular. Hence “Wallachia” as the name for the Romance-speaking part of the Balkans. \*\* And not only that. The word is also connected to Early Saxon _wealas_ (plus or minus some diacritic signs), that became _Welsh_. So every time English call a Welsh a Welsh, they call him a Roman. Sort of. I suppose that was because for invading/migrating Saxons, that was part of Romania, and everyone in was assumed to be a Roman by default. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/48 "2003-11-21T13:21:25Z")
hey, whaddayaknow, a spoken language is also called a living language. They change, are influenced by other languages and people who speak them. Wouldn’t it be dreary if all place names had the same name, all over the world? Let’s just enjoy it, non? ---
**Author:** ![toscar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f9ae1b/32.png) [@toscar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toscar)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/49 "2003-11-21T17:59:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by T. Mehr \* > \*\*Who came up with the english names for european towns? And why? > > Examples: > Nuremberg (=Nürnberg) > Munich (=München) > Vienna (=Wien) > Geneva (=Genf) \*\* We Brits mangle even our own place names. Reading a very old book I came across a reference to Arthur Fell. I knew the area well but I couldn’t place Arthur Fell. A bit of research eventually disclosed that the latest Ordnance Survey map named the feature HARTER FELL. A lot of imagination led me to believe that when the first Ordnance Surveyor mapped the area he asked a local what they called this particular feature. This local possibly couldn’t read or write and his broad dialect led the cartographer to hear HARTER when ARTHUR was intended. ---
**Author:** ![toscar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f9ae1b/32.png) [@toscar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toscar)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/50 "2003-11-21T18:08:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toscar \* > \*\*We Brits mangle even our own place names. Reading a very old book I came across a reference to Arthur Fell. I knew the area well but I couldn’t place Arthur Fell. > A bit of research eventually disclosed that the latest Ordnance Survey map named the feature HARTER FELL. > A lot of imagination led me to believe that when the first Ordnance Surveyor mapped the area he asked a local what they called this particular feature. This local possibly couldn’t read or write and his broad dialect led the cartographer to hear HARTER when ARTHUR was intended. \*\* After posting the above I recalled a personal experience. As snotty nosed kids in Carlisle (UK) we called a certain feature EASY POME. It was only many,many years later that I saw the feature named on a map and the correct name was HYSSOP HOLM. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/51 "2003-11-21T19:00:47Z")
And you’re still shite at Irish placenames, too. Last week in a certain British magazine I’m too embarrassed to admit I was reading, I saw a reference to “County Whitlow”. ---
**Author:** ![Richard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Richard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/52 "2003-11-21T21:29:41Z")
I have often wondered what is the English name of the Dutch city 'sHertogenbosch. This name is practically unpronouncable in English. The Dutch commonly simplify it to “den Bos”, which would be “The Woods” in English, but that hardly seems to be a reasonable city name. I have seen it on maps with the French name “Bois le Duc”, but that is hardly easier to say in English. By analogy with “The Hague”, maybe it should be “The Bos”, but I have never seen that. Does it actually have an English name? ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/53 "2003-11-21T21:42:35Z")
Nitpick: the name is 's Hertogenbosch, often shortened as Den Bosch. The full name would mean The Woods of the Counts (which is the exact translation of the French. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/54 "2003-11-21T22:29:27Z")
Well, not exact. “Duc” and “Hertzog” are “Duke.” “Comte” and “Graf” would be “Count.” ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/55 "2003-11-24T10:25:38Z")
When the first cartographers came to the remote valleys of northern Sweden, they usually took local Sami people with them, asking for the names of the surrounding mountains. Thus a lot of the peaks got native Sami names. One of them is called _Kaskavagge_, which is the Sami expression for “I don’t know what that mountain is called.” Obviously the cartographers knowledge of the Sami language was somewhat limited… On some newer maps the summit is now called _nameless_. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/56 "2003-11-24T13:36:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Richard \* > \*\*I have often wondered what is the English name of the Dutch city 'sHertogenbosch. This name is practically unpronouncable in English. The Dutch commonly simplify it to “den Bos”, which would be “The Woods” in English, but that hardly seems to be a reasonable city name. I have seen it on maps with the French name “Bois le Duc”, but that is hardly easier to say in English. By analogy with “The Hague”, maybe it should be “The Bos”, but I have never seen that. Does it actually have an English name? \*\* Actually, the correct spelling would be Den Bosch . People don’t think of a forest when they say it, a forest or wood in Dutch would be called _een_ bos, or _het_ bos, but never **den** bos. So by using the **den** , it’s automatically clear that it’s the city we’re talking about. It doesn’t have an English name, as far as i’m aware, I think the “den bosch” version is used by the English. Reason why the Low lands have such strange place names, is due to the political structure in the Middle Ages. A city could become a city state, if you were lucky enough, and each city state had different privileges and such. A region would be named after the duke, or count, or prince that was in charge of that particular region. Sometimes, names stuck. Other times, the next duke or count or prince would have it named after him. History of the Low Lands during the Middle Ages is extremely complicated. There’s a town called **Venlo** in The Netherlands, and a city called **Leuven** in Belgium. They mean the exact same thing. Lo or Lee or Leu meaning hill (like Waterloo) Ven meaning pond or small lake. they just swapped them around, but it’s the same name, really. Languages are fun, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/57 "2003-11-27T12:43:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dag Otto \* > \*\* > Going on a tangent, what about the names of border towns? I’m thinking of El Paso and Juarez, separated by only the Rio Grande (or is it the Rio Bravo?), having different names, but Nogales, Arizona and Nogales, Sonora having the same name. For cities separated by a border, is it more common to have the same name or different names? \*\* In California, we of course share the border with Mexico. We have the town of Mexicali, and across the border in Mexico is the town of Calexico. Anyway, most european town names in English definitely come from French, because the Normans (and in general closer contact with France) would have resulted in place names coming from French. Take Italy for example: Florence \< Fiorenza Rome \< Roma Naples \< Napoli Sicily \< Sicilia Tuscany \> Toscana Milan \> Milano Venice \> Venezia ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067/58 "2003-11-27T13:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doobieous \* > Florence \< Fiorenza The name of the town in Italian is **Firenze**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-names-for-european-towns/214067.md?page=2)