# English-only in the US: Unconstitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279 "2003-04-26T06:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/21 "2003-04-26T15:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > \*\*Several years ago, I was riding a bike on the side of the road, and a Russian woman pulled out in front of me. She hit me. > > Fortunatly, she wasn’t going very fast. I was knocked off my bike, rolled and came up fine. My bike was a little banged up (and I needed a new rim) but it wasn’t too bad. > > I approched the car, and tried to ask the woman if she was ok, and figure out what had happened. > > She either didn’t speak a lick of English, or faked it. As I’m limping up, she smiles and shrugs her shoulders, then takes off.\*\* You know, almost the same thing happened to me once. Oddly enough though I always just took it as evidence that some drivers are _arseholes_. People drive all over Europe not knowing the language of the country they’re driving in. I’ve still never heard of an accident happening because of it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/22 "2003-04-26T16:20:13Z")
JRD: Very good points. There is often some very ugly rhetoric by the supporters of “English only”. It’s one thing to say the gov’t needn’t bend over backwards to accomodate non-English speakers. It’s another thing altogether to rant about store clerks who don’t speak English very well. But an important point about the 227 issue is that many supporters argue that the old system of bilinual education was **hurting** immigrant children by needlessly delaying they’re immersion in English. You might argue with that idea, but it is well established that learning to speak a foreign language (English in this case) fluently is **much** easier when done before the child reaches puberty. Delay it beyond that point, and fluency degrades rapidly. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/23 "2003-04-26T16:36:56Z")
Taking **wmulax93’s** question a step farther, I think it’s important that the country have a single, official language. E.g., the bi-lingual situation in Canada is an endless source of problems. For that reason, I think multi-lingual ballots, etc. are steps in the wrong direction. We should encourage immigrants to learn English; we certainly shouldn’t encourage them not to do so. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/24 "2003-04-26T16:39:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wmulax93 \* > **There are many examples of Americans going to foreign countries and getting angry when people don’t speak English.** I’ve never had anything but contempt for such people; I live in a foreign country and try to speak the language that everyone else here does. I see no reason why a foreigner moving to the United States should do any differently. If they feel their national identity so strongly that they feel that speaking a different language is offensive then they are obviously not the kind of person who should be immigrating to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/25 "2003-04-26T16:47:56Z")
BTW, we (Americans) should keep in mind that expat yanks are famous for sheltering themselves in English speaking enclaves and not learning the language of the country they live in. Granted, an expat isn’t the same as an immigrant, since the expat’s posting is often temporary, but it’s still good to keep that thought in mind the next time you get irritated at someone not speaking English in the US. I recall being in Norway awhile back and an expat fellow who had been there long enough to marry a Norwegian girl and to have kids was complaining that he had troube conversing with his son, who didn’t speak English very well. When I susggested that he might consider learning some Norwegian, I got a blank stare. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/26 "2003-04-26T17:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Granted, an expat isn’t the same as an immigrant, since the expat’s posting is often temporary, but it’s still good to keep that thought in mind the next time you get irritated at someone not speaking English in the US. Speaking only for myself, I never get irritated when someone doesn’t speak English in the US. For all I know, they got off the plane yesterday and are here on vacation. I only get annoyed when people 1)get angry that I don’t speak their language (happens to me all the time-someone stops me on the street and asks me something in Spanish and gets annoyed when I don’t understand) or 2) believe that government agencies and/or private businesses should instantly be able to accomodate their lack of English in the way that the person prefers. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/27 "2003-04-26T17:24:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*I recall being in Norway awhile back and an expat fellow who had been there long enough to marry a Norwegian girl and to have kids was complaining that he had troube conversing with his son, who didn’t speak English very well. When I susggested that he might consider learning some Norwegian, I got a blank stare. \*\* As someone else said, I too have nothing but contempt for such people. If there are some real, concrete reasons why you should not learn the language of the country you’re in, please share them with me. I’ve yet to locate a good one. I spent two weeks vacationing in various parts of Italy and managed to pull together a basic vocabulary of vital questions and answers in Italian, both from my phrase book and from general experience. Within two weeks, I wasn’t consulting the book for much of it. I’m sure I butchered pronunciation, but I tried. With a minimum of effort I could make my needs understood. _It really isn’t that difficult_. My experience is most natives of a country care more for the fact that you’re working things out than the fact that you occassionally look like a putz doing so. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/28 "2003-04-26T17:46:59Z")
Let’s play a game. Suppose that, for whatever reason, you decided to move to say, Mainland China. Not just to visit, not for a temporary job assignment, but in order to live out the rest of your days and possibly raise a family. Let’s also assume that you don’t know a lick of the Chinese language. Do you think it realistic to expect the local government, schools and merchants to all accomodate your lack of language skills? As others have said, the secret to success is assimilation, and the first step is learning the language. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/29 "2003-04-26T17:49:54Z")
Priam: Well, I think a lot of people have “language anxiety”. Just like math anxiety, only about languages. They get intimidated, thinking it’s too hard. But, as I’m sure you found out, it is very difficult to experience what a country has to offer if you don’t at least try to speak the language. Doreen: I think your experience w/ Spanish speakers is unusual. I live in CA where a lot of people speak only Spanish and this has never happened to me. It’s hard to understand them getting upset at you becuase you don’t speak Spanish. Perhaps they are just frustrated at not being able to communicate and it just comes off that way. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/30 "2003-04-26T18:17:36Z")
The worst part of the whole process was learning grammar, but even thats not absolutely vital. If you have the vocabulary and keep things simple, most of the time what you say remains understandable. If someone walked into a US bakery and said “bread for me please give”, you’d think it somewhat odd but you’d know what they wanted roughly. Types of bread could easily be sorted out from there, as well as quantity. I think the key a lot of people forget is language comes down to communicating ideas. You can communicate smoothly or not, complex ideas or simple, but if you’re communicating at all then you are using the language effectively. Pretty is something you pick up as you go along. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/31 "2003-04-26T19:08:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wmulax93 \* > **Monty** , the Vietnamese example was given by my professor in class and I took it at face value. I guessed that it would be near San Francisco. I’ve never actually been to California, so I have no idea personally. Then your professor is either flat out a liar, or he’s stupid, possibly even just lazy. You see, San Francisco’s main language is English. San Francisco’s Chinatown’s main language is English. San Francisco’s Japantown’s main language is English. Business is conducted constantly there in English. Other communities “near San Francisco” and their main language follow: [ul]Daly City - English San Jose - English etc…etc…[/ul] I suggest the next time your professor utters such an inane comment, you take the initiative and prove yourself a proud SDMB Doper by saying to him: “Cite?” **John Mace** , I actually saw this as a 1st amendment issue, and here is why: Under the first amendment, the government can make no law prohibiting free speech. Under Prop 227 (under my admittedly misinformed idea of it) a federally funded entity (a public school) is forcing people to speak in a different manner than is normal to them. This may be a stretch, but I see it as a violation in the same manner that a judge can no longer post the Ten Commandments in the courtroom. **Tristan** and **december** , I’ll never convince either of you that you may be wrong, but here goes anyways. While it may seem silly that immigrants don’t learn English, they have no responsibility to do so. Some of these people will rarely leave their (language of choice)-speaking communities, and have little use for English. Others feel it is insulting to their culture and heritage to be forced to learn English. There are many examples of Americans going to oreign countries and getting angry when people don’t speak English. No I don’t have a cite, just stories I’ve heard. \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/32 "2003-04-26T19:12:39Z")
Drat! Please remove from my posting above everything from “John Mace” to the end of it. I forgot to erase the rest of the stuff in my quote & response. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/33 "2003-04-26T19:28:15Z")
This discussion is always so frustrating on several levels, mostly because of the way history gets changed to support personal feelings. Among the impressions that one would get by reading this thread: – _Earlier immigrants all assimilated as quickly as possible with no help while today’s immigrants don’t do the same thing._ In reality, earlier immigrants were often accused of the same stubborn refusal to assimilate or learn the language. My German ancestors arrived around 1850, but continued to speak German in the home until around 1900. At the same time, the bulk of the immigrant population did not just go out and learn the language on their own. Substantial investment was made by most of the large cities to provide both English instruction for the immigrants and their children and to provide public documents in the languages of the larger immigrant populations. (When the House passed an English Only bill in the 1990s, (purportedly to same the government printing costs) it turned out that in the prior five years, the U.S. had printed 265 documents in foreign languages–out of more than 400,000 documents.) \* – _Today’s immigrants don’t want to be bothered learning the language (the way **my** ancestors did) and they fight attempts to help them, such as Prop 227._ In reality, over 90% of all immigrants, today, become functional in English within a few years of their arrival–and one of the largest supporting groups of Prop 227 was the Hispanic community who felt that the bi-lingual program _as it existed_ was holding back their children from learning English well enough to succeed. (And the same claim that the “new” immigrants are not learning English the way the “old” immigrants did was also made in 1911–although no evidence was produced to support it, then, either.) Claims that “they no longer have to speak English to be naturalized” also have the counterpoint that the rule requiring English for naturalization was only imposed in 1906. There are, indeed, groups who have spoken out in favor of becoming a(n officially) multi-lingual nation. However, they are a fairly small minority of people, and treating their calls as though they were representative of the majority of immigrants is not valid. The fact is that we have a nation in which English is the _de facto_ language of commerce and law. Calls for either English as “the” official language or calls to recognize other languages officially are both counterproductive. * * * - I will cite the [Encyclopedia of Cleveland History](http://ech.cwru.edu/) simply because I am familiar with it, but similar information can be found for all major cities (at least in the North) between 1830 and 1930. From [AMERICANIZATION](http://ech.cwru.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=A6): > [@](#): > > the public school found that immigrant children needed specialized programs to succeed in the classroom. In Mayflower School, built at the corner of Mayflower (31st St.) and Orange in 1851, the majority of students came from Czech families (see CZECHS), and only 25% of the pupils could speak English by the 1870s. Teachers spent a portion of each day providing special lessons in the English language. In 1870 superintendent ANDREW RICKOFF† and the school board instituted the teaching of German, to successfully enroll the majority of the more than 2,000 children of German parentage (see GERMANS) who had previously attended PRIVATE SCHOOLS that taught subjects in German. > [@](#): > > Nationality churches served over 200,000 people by the turn of the century. Parochial schools of the Catholic diocese that taught foreign languages and customs flourished as Cleveland became the home of newcomers from Southern and Eastern Europe. Described as “the new immigrants,” they increased from 43,281 to 115,870 people between 1900-10. > [@](#): > > In 1901 Harmon School provided “steamer classes,” language instruction for foreign-born children. Evening schools taught adult immigrants civics and English, to help them pass naturalization exams. Schools also expanded social-welfare programs to meet the needs of immigrant, working-class children and youth. In 1907 a medical dispensary, the first of its kind, opened in LITTLE ITALY. Despite these efforts to reach immigrants, the CLEVELAND FOUNDATION’s school survey of 1915 criticized the school system for not providing enough steamer classes and other specialized programs: among public school students, over 50% came from homes in which a foreign language was spoken. It was estimated that over 60,000 unnaturalized immigrants lived in Cleveland and that two-thirds of the student population left school before the legally required age of 16 for girls and 15 for boys. > [@](#): > > On 6 April 1917, Mayor HARRY L. DAVIS† appointed the MAYOR’S ADVISORY WAR COMMITTEE, which created a “Committee of the Teaching of English to Foreigners,” with business leader HAROLD T. CLARK† as chair. Renamed the Cleveland Americanization Council, the organization coordinated 68 local groups and worked with state and federal programs. The Board of Education trained language teachers, and the Citizens Bureau at city hall supplied instructors of naturalization. Both programs were offered at schools, factories, libraries, social settlements, churches, and community centers. Naturalization classes enrolled 2,067 students during the fall of 1919. The council launched a citywide publicity campaign, which included posters in different languages and advertisements in 22 nationality newspapers. [Commentary from an ESL teacher.](http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JWCRAWFORD/mitesol.htm) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/34 "2003-04-26T19:45:59Z")
Seems like store clerks with poor English skills are the brunt of a lot of people’s anger. I just want to shake these people sometimes and say “If your white-bread teenage son wasn’t such a spoiled lazy-assed punk, he’d be working in that store to make some extra money. Too often it’s the recent immigrants who are the **only** ones willing to work their butts off in low paying jobs. So quit your freakin’ whining and pass that _salsa verde, por favor_.” As for bilingual education, I really think you need a “one size doesn’t fit all” strategy. Recent immigrant children, say 10 or under, can probably be mainstreamed very quickly, as per 227. Immigrant children who are, say 15 or 16 might need a different approach. They might need more help, but I’d also expect them to be able work harder than their 10 yr old siblings. And I think very few, if any, immigrants don’t want their kids to learn English. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/35 "2003-04-26T20:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > **Seems like store clerks with poor English skills are the brunt of a lot of people’s anger. I just want to shake these people sometimes and say "If your white-bread teenage son wasn’t such a spoiled lazy-assed punk, he’d be working in that store to make some extra money. Too often it’s the recent immigrants who are the only ones willing to work their butts off in low paying jobs. So quit your freakin’ whining and pass that _salsa verde, por favor_."** What gets me is people who use store clerks as examples of immigrants who “don’t want to learn English”, when in fact these are probably the immigrants who are trying the _hardest_ to learn English. People forget sometimes how difficult it can be to learn a foreign language - and of course it’s more difficult for some than for others. > [@](#): > > As for bilingual education, I really think you need a “one size doesn’t fit all” strategy. It seems self-evident to me that different people learn things in different ways, and that there should be room to maneuver on these issues. I find it astounding that things like bilingual education are put to a public vote - WTF does the average voter know about how children learn languages? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/36 "2003-04-26T20:39:26Z")
Thanks for the information, tom. The quotes and links clarify questions I had before. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/37 "2003-04-26T20:59:32Z")
ruadh: The process of teaching English to non-English speakers is not what was put to a vote. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/38 "2003-04-26T21:01:34Z")
Because of where I live, I’ve often gotten people who only speak Spanish where I’m working. Often, they’re from Mexico–I can see their plates, after all, but I’m used to people having Spanish as a home language. Now, I don’t know much Spanish besides some numbers, the other essentials (please, thank you, restroom, etc.), and various words and phrases I’ve picked up over the years. In my experience, the customers that only speak Spanish are polite and try to help me with overcoming the language barrier. 20 bucks on 2 is easy enough, but there was a time when a guy came in wanting propane. I don’t know the Spanish for propane, he didn’t know the English, but as soon as he said American gas (the propane supplier is Amerigas) I knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, I had a couple from Jersey (I swear, all the weirdos I get come from New Jersey) come in, immediately starting in Spanish, and were aghast when I cut them off in English. I wasn’t too rude about it, but I was annoyed. So, I guess the assholes can be on either side of the language issue. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/39 "2003-04-26T21:33:29Z")
gas propano = propane gas 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/40 "2003-04-26T22:49:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > \*\*gas propano = propane gas 🙂 \*\* Now you tell me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279.md?page=3)