# English-only in the US: Unconstitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279 "2003-04-26T06:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/61 "2003-04-27T22:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Then your professor is either flat out a liar, or he’s stupid, possibly even just lazy. You see, San Francisco’s main language is English. San Francisco’s Chinatown’s main language is English. San Francisco’s Japantown’s main language is English. Business is conducted constantly there in English. Other communities “near San Francisco” and their main language follow: > > [ul]Daly City - English > San Jose - English > etc…etc…[/ul] > > I suggest the next time your professor utters such an inane comment, you take the initiative and prove yourself a proud SDMB Doper by saying to him: “Cite?” > \*\* Well, he said he ~thought~ the prof meant San Francisco. His prof probably meant in Orange County, where in Little Saigon (in and around Garden Grove) there is a large area where hardly anything is in english but primarily Vietnamese, and back when I lived in the area at least (around 10 yeara ago) the language spoken was primarily Vietnamese. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/62 "2003-04-27T22:58:01Z")
Sua, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I believe the democratic process should not be used by the majority to infringe on the rights of minorities. It may be legal but I think it is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/63 "2003-04-27T23:11:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*The English only crowd insist on ignoring the fact that a number of states like Texas, New mexico and Arizona were part of Mexico and their language was Spanish. It is the English-speaking people who are the immigrants there and trying to impose their language. The native population are not immigants and they have no obligation to adapt to the more recently arrived anglos. If the USA wants to have a single language then they should return those states to Mexico or have Spanish as the sole language. Next thing you know some people will be saying the Iraquis should be forced to speak English. \*\* Well, first, whatever things were like over a 100 years ago is irrelevent. The fact of the matter is the majority of people in those areas now speak english. And by the way, California was in the process of seceeding from Mexico at the time just prior to the Mexican-American war, and had allready held talks with US reps about joining the union. Considering how low the population was in those areas at the time of the Mex-Am war, its hard to give credit when you claim that we are the immigrants. You seem to see this as some sort or parental rights thing, when its not. In many ways its a childrens rights issue. Let put it this way: do parents have the right to limit the tools their children have access to for reasons that border on the religous? Does a parent have the right to limit their childs ability to succeed as an adult in an english speaking country for reasons that are purely a matter of personal conscience? The purpose of education isnt because of the rights of parents to have an education given to their child. The purpose is all americans have the right to be taught the tools they will need to survive, prosper and follow their own best interests as best they can. Education is based on the rights of the students, not the parents. English is the primary tool of communication in this country. For students in the US to be in the public school system and not be taught english at the same level as all other students would be a severe dereliction of the states responsibilty mentioned above, i.e to provide them with the base tools they need to survive. Indeed, what youre talking about amounts to educational aparthied. And lets not make any mistake about it; thats what language is, a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. If you or someone else wants to make a language, english or any other, into some holy thing/cultural identity trip or whatever, thats fine, but the state, out of its responsibility to remain impartial, can take no stand on the issue, and it hasnt. If you intend to say that the state not wanting to fund bi-lingual education is a violation of your rights, you arent sounding much different than someone who said the state not funding a religous education for their kids is a violation of their rights. But again, its not your rights that are at issue, its your kids rights to receive an education. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/64 "2003-04-27T23:19:42Z")
The same arguments were used some decades ago to teach native Americans in English and deny them their native language and culture. i think they were wrong then and I think they are wrong now. I believe parents should have the freedom to choose what culture and language they want for their children. Just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/65 "2003-04-28T00:07:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Sailor Wrote: > teach native Americans in English and deny them their native language and culture. Marinero, mi amigo: I won’t defend what was done to the Native Americans in the past. It was wrong. However, teaching English and denying native culture **do not** have to be linked. Current efforts to teach immigrant children English do not forbid the use of their native language. It’s a real stretch to compare prop227 with the forced cultural denuding of Native Americans 100 yrs ago. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/66 "2003-04-28T00:50:42Z")
The argument is the same: It is better for them and we do it for their own good. I say let them choose their own good. Give people the freedom to choose. If a district has a sizeable Spanish-speaking population and they want their taxes to be used to teach their kids in Spanish, why should the people from somewhere else prevent that? The majority should respect the minority. As I say, it is a matter of opinion. You have yours and I’ll keep mine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/67 "2003-04-28T01:19:54Z")
Sailor: Suppose the majority decided that they wanted to teach their kids Catholicism? Would you support that in public schools? Suppose the majority decided they wanted **not** to teach their children mathematics. Supposing the majorty decided they wanted to teach their children white supremacy. I think that you can envision times when the state should override the wishes of the parents for the good of the child, if you answered yes to any of the above situations. Another time would be if parents decide **not** to allow English to be taught to their Kids **as the primary language**. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/68 "2003-04-28T04:05:48Z")
**Mace** , I think there are a couple of ways to look at this: 1. Teaching English is like teaching math, or sciences, or history. It will help you get a better job, it will be a good thing to learn because the more you know the better you will be in life. Learning English as a second language doesn’t mean your first language is useless and crappy, and it does not mean that you were born with a defect or a defective environment(not learning English as a first language). 2. You should learn English because you must, and you come from an inferior/retarded environment because you didn’t learn English first. Your original language is useless and should be avoided. And since a language is usually tied with a culture, then your culture is probably defective too. I think **sailor** means that, even if you start a program with the first option in mind, it could change to the second option (and I agree with that). ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/69 "2003-04-28T04:12:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wmulax93 \* > \*\*Hmm, I’ll have to research this a little more now that the semester is over. As for the was/were: as I said, the semester is over. My brain has been shut down 😉 > > Thanks for the insight into 227 though, the way it was explained in my class was a bit different, but by a student. She may have been misinformed during her research. \*\* My Aunt is in California, and I have cousins who would “qualify” for the “bilingual” courses. (Children of her children). The general feeling I got from her was that the “bilingual” courses before 227 passed served to actually hold back the Spanish-speaking students, rendering them less able to compete in a general job market and political field outside of the Spanish-language neighborhoods. This is great if one is a politician who has built up a power base among a Spanish-only client population. It stinks for the people reduced to client status. The funny thing is that, up here in Indiana, I can find third-generation Greeks who still speak modern Greek and can hold onto their culture. The same is true even of some of the German community in Indianapolis. How is it that they have been able to hold onto their cultures without explicit aid from the state (and even in the face of outright hostility in the case of the Germans)? Don’t underestimate the Spanish-speakers. If they want to keep their language and culture badly enough, they will, and Little Mexico will become as permanent a feature in our great cities as is Chinatown, with all the social, political, and economic benefits that entails. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/70 "2003-04-28T04:14:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Sua, I do not think I am “talking about the wrong issue”. Why can’t parents decide what language they want their children to be educated in? \*\* Indeed! If parents want to ensure that their children never advance outside the Neighborhood, it’s their right! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/71 "2003-04-28T04:28:51Z")
Dog: It’s actually worse than that. Suppose a kid lives in one of Sailor’s communities that has decided to have instruction in Spanish Maybe he’s of Mexican desent, and his parents speak Spanish in the home. No problem. The community is heavily Hispanic, so the kid gets along fine without much English. Then his parents moves OUT of this community. He may fall behind in school, or the new school will have to provide bilingual ed for a kid who was born and grew up in this country. What a needless disservice to this kid. Karl: Because a kid MIGHT end up thinking his parental language is “inferior”, you’d risk NOT giving him a good command of the English language? Intersting priorities, unless I’m misunderstanding your point. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/72 "2003-04-28T04:57:50Z")
Voodoo: I’d still have to see some census data to buy that the primary language in the area is Vietnamese. ---
**Author:** ![torben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/73 "2003-04-28T05:20:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wmulax93 \* > \*\*Here is my problem with your argument: English is not predominantly spoken in every single part of this country. It is also not the “official” language of the United States. Parts of California are predominantly Spanish speaking. Other parts speak primarily Vietnamese or Chinese. Here in Michigan (where we have no such law), the area around Holland is made up of a large percentage of Spanish speakers. Arabic is common in Dearborn. Your language may be common to the most people in this country, but not in _every part_ of this country. \*\* Who cares? The fact is that English **is spoken** by the vast majority of the country. If someone lives in the United States they should expect to speak and/or learn english. Alot of people come to this country and think everything should be available to them in their native tongue. This is just ludicrous. If you are in this country people should be prepared to have everything in english. Just because there are small pockets of neighborhoods that speak different languages does not mean the official language of the country should not be english. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/74 "2003-04-28T05:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Alot of people come to this country and think everything should be available to them in their native tongue. . . . Just because there are small pockets of neighborhoods that speak different languages does not mean the official language of the country should not be english. Define “alot.” While there may be some number of immigrants who choose to never learn English, the overwhelming majority of immigrants do, indeed, make the effort to learn English. Given that we have gotten along for 227 years without an official language (including several past periods when some immigrant enclaves did not necessarily learn English), what purpose would be served by artificially imposing an “official” langiuage? (This is separate from the discussion of the OP as to whether schools should be compelled to provide instruction in languages other than English. What is the point of an “official” language other than to provide a pretext to rationalize xenophobic persecution?) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/75 "2003-04-28T11:30:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* > > Karl: Because a kid MIGHT end up thinking his parental language is “inferior”, you’d risk NOT giving him a good command of the English language? Intersting priorities, unless I’m misunderstanding your point. \*\* No, I said that having a program to teach English to non-English could end up like that scenario (which is not a good idea). My first language isn’t English, and I certainly don’t think my parental culture is inferior. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/76 "2003-04-28T13:13:18Z")
So being truly an American is about speaking English? I have a different opinion: I think America is about freedom. Freedom to choose and to make your own mistakes or successes. I find it frightening that some people want to impose their ideas on others. As I said, some countries limit the names you can give your children on account that they know what is good for the children better that you do. I disagree. And many European countries seem to have several languages and seem to function pretty well. What’s the problem with Switzerland? UK? Spain? They all have several languages. What’s so good about uniformity? Again, why is it OK for the Indian Tribes to teach in their languages and not for other Americans? Vast regions of the country have spoken spanish for centuries and that is their language and their culture. Why do we have a problem if the people of West Undershirt County want to spend their tax money educating their kids in Spanish? They are not asking the people of New York to pay for it. So what if some people speak Spanish as their primary language and English as a second language? That would be a strength for America. Not a weakness. America has a dismal record of people speaking other lenguages. This will only make it worse. But the main reason is freedom. There is nothing more American than freedom. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/77 "2003-04-28T13:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > This will only make it worse. Do you have an explicit “this” in mind? There have been a number of wandering topics on this thread. I’m willing to provide facts to dispute the wild claim that all them new furriners don’ talk good English, but I haven’t been quite sure what your _specific_ position is. I have occasionally wondered if some of the posters on this thread are not in disagreement so much as talking past each other. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/78 "2003-04-28T14:01:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > Sua, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I believe the democratic process should not be used by the majority to infringe on the rights of minorities. It may be legal but I think it is wrong. **Sailor,** identify the right being infringed. There is no right to require that a particular service be provided to you for free. In this case, the democratic process is being used by the majority to infringe on the _desires_ of a minority. > [@](#): > > I believe parents should have the freedom to choose what culture and language they want for their children. And they do - they can send their kids to a Spanish school. > [@](#): > > So being truly an American is about speaking English? I have a different opinion: I think America is about freedom. Freedom to choose and to make your own mistakes or successes. I find it frightening that some people want to impose their ideas on others. I find it frightening that you equate the decision to no longer provide a free service with the deprivation of freedom and the imposition of ideas. > [@](#): > > Why do we have a problem if the people of West Undershirt County want to spend their tax money educating their kids in Spanish? IIRC **sailor,** due to Proposition 13 education is paid for by the State of California, not individual communities. Thus, it is the state’s money, not that of West Undershirt County. Sua ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/79 "2003-04-28T14:21:10Z")
Sua: Prop 13 is California only. I think Sailor was speaking more broadly. Sailor: The Switzerland analogy is an interesting one, as I would say they have managed to do fairly well IN SPITE of multi-lingual situation. And while not true of Italian, most Swiss speak both French and German. Keep in mind that what we’re talking about in the US is just not English/Spanish, but a MULTITUDE of other languages: Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Hindi, Urdu, to name just a few. Perhaps a better analogy is Canada, which has to deal with a wrenching secessionist drive every 10 yrs or so. Not \*\*my[/] idea of constructive. And BTW, I am unaware of any signficant movement by Spanish speaking Americans to have their children taught in Spanish. Can you provide some meat for this idea you are espousing? IIRC, most Spanish speakers want their kids to learn English in schools and in fact were overwhelming supporters of prop 227 (which, BTW, is the OP here). As for the Amerindian analogy, it’s not the same. Indian Tribes are recognized as “nations” with a certain amount of sovereignty from the federal and state gov’t. Not true of your average, run of the mill, non-English speaker. You might not like that situation, but to argue that it is not a fact is simply incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279/80 "2003-04-28T14:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Sailor, identify the right being infringed. There is no right to require that a particular service be provided to you for free. > In this case, the democratic process is being used by the majority to infringe on the desires of a minority. Sua, as i said, it may be _legal_ but I think it s wrong. Yes, rich people can send their kids anywhere they want but for the not-so-rich it means they do not get a choice. They pay taxes like everybody else and they don’t get a choice. They are forced to go along with the majority. I think it is wrong. Nothing more than my opinion. The service is not “free”. It is paid with tax money which the people who speak Spanish do. I think it is wrong for the majority to impose their culture on the minority. That is just me. Just my opinion. John Mace, I am not saying whether there is or there is not anysignificant movement. I am saying that _if_ significant numbers want it, then they should have the choice. I understand that if the number is small enough then this is not practical. So, i would leave the decision to the county. People who want to have schools in Spanish can move to counties which provide that. I realize the Amerindian analogy is not legally the same. I am just saying I believe counties with a Spanish majority should have that right too. Hey, did I say it is just my opinion? And you know how I would solve this? With vouchers! Here’s $5 and send your kid to any school you want. The government should not be in the education business in the first place. Again, IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-only-in-the-us-unconstitutional/171279.md?page=5)