# English place names, why two? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 21, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450 "2022-03-21T23:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DooProcess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DooProcess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooProcess)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/1 "2022-03-21T23:48:51Z")
I have noticed that English (the place not the language) often are given in pairs. Somethingshire, Otherthingford for example. This has proven difficult for me to figure out with search engines only providing results for funny place names in England etc. Is this convention giving town and county? If so, what search terms might give me results worth reading? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/2 "2022-03-21T23:51:21Z")
Shire is similar to a US County. > **[Shire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > Shire is a traditional term for an administrative division of land in Great Britain and some other English-speaking countries such as Australia. It is generally synonymous with county. It was first used in Wessex from the beginning of Anglo-Saxon settlement, and spread to most of the rest of England in the tenth century. In some rural parts of Australia, a shire is a local government area; however, in Australia it is not synonymous with a "count... Ford has to do with rivers > **[Ford (crossing)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_(crossing))** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > A ford is a shallow place with good footing where a river or stream may be crossed by wading, or inside a vehicle getting its wheels wet. A ford may occur naturally or be constructed. Fords may be impassable during high water. A low-water crossing is a low bridge that allows crossing over a river or stream when water is low but may be treated as a ford when the river is high and water covers the crossing. > A ford is a much cheaper form of river ... [One of five English cities to end in -ford. All denote a fording place over a river.](https://londonist.com/london/outside-london/englishcitynames) ---
**Author:** ![DooProcess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DooProcess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooProcess)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/3 "2022-03-21T23:59:19Z")
I appreciate the quick response and could have worded my question a little better. I am more interested in the giving of two names when referring to a location, similar to saying New York, New York here in the states. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/4 "2022-03-22T00:01:32Z")
Hmmm… your question still isn’t 100% clear (to me). ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/5 "2022-03-22T00:03:38Z")
Possibly you mean _locality_ and _post town_ like “Heswall BOURNEMOUTH” example given in: > **[UK Address Guidelines](https://ideal-postcodes.co.uk/guides/good-addressing-guidelines)** > > Ensure your mail is correctly addressed with our UK clear addressing guidelines ---
**Author:** ![DooProcess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DooProcess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooProcess)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/6 "2022-03-22T00:29:03Z")
This looks like what im after. Locality and Post Town. ETA Thelma it’s still barely clear to me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/7 "2022-03-22T00:45:58Z")
> [@DooProcess](#): > > ETA Thelma it’s still barely clear to me Any _real_ example of what you’re talking about would clarify matters… > [@DooProcess](#): > > Somethingshire, Otherthingford for example. This is not the manner in which any English place name would be stated. A place name ending in _ford_ would be a town or village. A place name ending in _shire_ would be a county. > **[Counties of England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_England)** > > The counties of England are divisions of England. There are currently 48 ceremonial counties, which have their origin in the historic counties of England established in the Middle Ages. The current ceremonial counties are the result of the Lieutenancies Act 1997 and are based on the Local Government Act 1972 administrative counties which included a number of new counties such as Greater Manchester and Tyne and Wear. However, some counties introduced by the Local Government Act 1972, incl For t... So the closest kind of place name to your format would be in the reverse order - something like “Bradford, West Yorkshire”. That’s the City of Bradford, in the county West Yorkshire. Loosely similar to city & state in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/8 "2022-03-22T00:55:40Z")
Some old English place names sound strange to the American ear because they use literal descriptors that we still understand in modern English like Stratford-Upon-Avon (a street that fords the river Avon) I’m sure similar constructions occur in other languages but they just sound like words and not sentences unless you speak the language. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/9 "2022-03-22T01:19:21Z")
> [@DooProcess](#): > > I am more interested in the giving of two names when referring to a location, similar to saying New York, New York here in the states. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Hmmm… your question still isn’t 100% clear (to me). Here’s what I _think_ the question is: In the United States, we identify a town or city by giving the city name + the name of the state. There are many cities in different states that have the same name as one another. So in order to unambiguously specify which place you mean, it’s not enough to give just the name of the city. But England, unlike the U.S.A., is not divided up into a whole bunch of different states that can each have their own version of Springfield (or whatever), so why is it necessary to give more than just a single town/city name when specifying a municipality in England? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/10 "2022-03-22T01:24:07Z")
There are towns with the same names in the UK, so a county, region, river, island, etc has to be named to distinguish them. - Stamford Bridge, London and Stamford Bridge, East Riding of Yorkshire. - St. Ives, Cornwall and St. Ives, Cambridge. - Newport, Wales and Newport Isle of Wight. - Ripley, North Yorkshire and Ripley, Surrey. - Gillingham, Kent and Gillingham, Dorset. I suspect there are many more. I got this list in a Google description for an article that’s paywalled. ---
**Author:** ![DooProcess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DooProcess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooProcess)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/11 "2022-03-22T01:42:43Z")
This was basically the question. The earlier answer about localities and post towns has satisfied my curiosity, but i appreciate all of the input. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/12 "2022-03-22T01:47:31Z")
In addition to the above, my understanding is that, in bigger cities in England, there are areas/wards, which each also have names. The example I can think of offhand is from Jeff Lynne (singer/guitarist for Electric Light Orchestra) – he’s from an area in Birmingham called Shard End, which I’ve seen referred to as “Shard End, Birmingham.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/13 "2022-03-22T01:49:41Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > why is it necessary to give more than just a single town/city name when specifying a municipality in England? It is not necessary - and it is not usually done with a major town or city. Nobody would say “Bradford, West Yorkshire” in any informal context. But you would often state the county with a _small_ town or village that someone might not know - i.e. to specify the location of an unknown town, not to resolve ambiguity between two known towns with the same name. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I suspect there are many more. No, it’s rare. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/14 "2022-03-22T01:56:17Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > an area in Birmingham called Shard End, which I’ve seen referred to as “Shard End, Birmingham.” That would be because many people haven’t heard of Shard End. I’m from the U.K., and this is the first time I’ve heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/15 "2022-03-22T03:23:26Z")
The same is true in the US. Most people woudln’t bother with saying Los Angeles, California or Houston, Texas. They would assume the listener would know the state. There are 5 other Houstons in the US. If you meant one of those, you would say the state under most circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/16 "2022-03-22T04:09:25Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > > > I suspect there are many more. > > No, it’s rare. Nope, Elmer was right. It is quite common for names to be duplicated in various parts of England. You just haven’t heard about most of them because it’s rare for more than one with the same name to be a sizable place. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/17 "2022-03-22T04:32:13Z")
I’m not sure if its just a TV trope but Americans, esp the ones with 5 cameras and Hawaiian shirts, are also apt to talk about their visits to ‘Paris, France’. Maybe they just don’t want you to be confused with their tale of the other Eiffel tower in Paris Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/18 "2022-03-22T04:36:22Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > It is quite common for names to be duplicated in various parts of England. You just haven’t heard about most of them because it’s rare for more than one with the same name to be a sizable place. Indeed, so what we were actually talking about is rare. In the U.K., it’s almost unheard of to need to append the county in order to distinguish between two major _known_ places with identical names like Portland or Springfield in the U.S. Whereas what we _will_ of course do is append the county to specify the location of a small town or village that people are unlikely to know at all. In such a case, whether or not there’s another village somewhere with the same name is irrelevant. You’re specifying a location, not distinguishing between two known locations. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/19 "2022-03-22T11:09:47Z")
Given how small the UK is it may come as a surprise that so many places can have the same name. There are so many sources for names here. Saxons, Romans, Normans, landowners, geography and so on. Among truck drivers “Newport” is top of the confusion stakes. There are at least 16 of them, although some are small villages. Long before postcodes, the Post Office knew the need for precision in addressing mail. Newport IOW is a very different place to Newport Shropshire or Newport Cornwall. All are substantial towns but a fair distance apart. Newcastle is another popular confusion. There is a major city called Newcastle on Tyne in the North East, but a large town called Newcastle under Lyme in the Midlands. Of course, both are usually just called ‘Newcastle’ but many a truck driver has found himself, red-faced, in the wrong one. (They are a four hour drive apart) Stratford Upon Avon is not far from where I live. If I said “I’m going to Stratford,” no one here would be confused and think I was going to East London where the Olympic stadium was constructed. New York, New York (so good they named it twice) confuses a lot of people over here. The City (which was New Amsterdam) became New York after Charlie II gave it to The Duke of York. The State was one of the original 13 English Colonies. Over here, when a County has the same name as its Town, we add ‘shire’ as in York, Yorkshire. (There is an outlier with Durham, County Durham, but hey ho!) ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450/20 "2022-03-22T11:55:34Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Over here, when a County has the same name as its Town, we add ‘shire’ as in York, Yorkshire. (There is an outlier with Durham, County Durham, but hey ho!) Well, unless we’re talking about Bristol, which is both a city and a county. I am forever correcting autofill address forms which try to force Bristol into Somerset or (god forbid) the defunct municiple county of ‘Avon’. OP, these day, with postcodes, you only really need the house number and the postcode to find your destination. But out of ingrained habit, we normally list Street, Town name Often then County for clarity, Postcode. I guess because we don’t all work for the Post Office or navigate our way through the world with Googlemaps. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-place-names-why-two/961450.md?page=2)