# English Premier League and Football in General **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 1, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867 "2005-02-01T22:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/501 "2005-04-04T11:51:39Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Here’s a thing: If the Fair Play route into the UEFA stays the same as it is now our representative will be…Norwich. Does that mean that every card in the premiership damages the English fair play rankings, and so damages Norwich’s chances of being in Europe? Heh heh, now who can remember where Kieron Dyer started out? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/502 "2005-04-04T11:59:53Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Does that mean that every card in the premiership damages the English fair play rankings, and so damages Norwich’s chances of being in Europe? Heh heh, now who can remember where Kieron Dyer started out? 😉 Yes it does - but even so we’re better behaved than most leagues. I have had this “Fair Play” thing explained to me very. slowly. indeed. And I still don’t understand it. There are points for things like crowd’s attitude to the opposition , sporting play etc. There’s also a lottery element in it. (I have no real idea how that works either) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/503 "2005-04-04T12:08:05Z")
I know, it does seem a mysterious system. I’ve been Googling and looking through Uefa’s site, and can’t find anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/504 "2005-04-04T12:13:12Z")
In the interests of fighting ignorance (and possibly propogating bafflement) here’s the straight dope (this is how it was explaned to me by a pal who works for the FA - don’t ask me any questions on this I’m in the same boat as the rest of you, this is C+p’d from my email so I hope it works):\>\>\>\>\>\> I thought I would answer your questions regarding fair play. What has happened since 1999 and specifically what happened last year. 12 associations (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, England, Germany, Ukraine, Republic of Ireland, Finland, Spain, Albania, Armenia and Iceland) out of 51 finished the season with a Fair Play coefficient of 8.0 or over, and have played enough matches to be taken into consideration for the Fair Play UEFA Cup place draw. Sweden came top so automatically the team with the highest coefficient got a place in the UEFA Cup qualifying rounds. This team was Östers who had in fact also been relegated from the top flight of the Swedish League. The Azerbaijani federation had actually the highest coefficient by far (8.751) but had only played 28 games and therefore was not elligible since UEFA’s Fair Play ranking only takes into account national associations that have played what UEFA says is a reasonable number of games. Out of the remaining 11 associations one team from each association who finished highest in the Fair Play league of that association and had not already qualified for Europe was put in a draw for 2 extra UEFA spots. Charlton had this spot for England but the winners of the draw were clubs from Armenia (Mika Ashtarak) and the Ukraine (Illichivets Mariupol) In simple terms, if for the season a country’s football association plays enough games and comes top of the Fair Play league they get an extra UEFA cup slot in their league for the team which finished highest in that association’s Fair Play league. This is exactly what happened with Manchester City in 2003, they automatically qualified for the UEFA Cup, without having to go into the draw, after coming 5th in the Fair Play league (4 teams above them had already qualified for Europe). Ipswich also did it in 2002 regardless of the fact that they were relegated, and what was more astonishing was that they were in a draw with SEVENTEEN other nations. Compared to the 11 last year, they got pretty lucky! This Season Nothing is different. Relegated teams still get a say in the Fair Play UEFA spot, 3 teams still get a UEFA Cup spot, 1 team from the top coefficient association still gets a UEFA Cup spot automatically and 2 teams are still drawn. (Check out page 16 of this UEFA pdf file released in March 2005 -\> [http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/283589.pdf](http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/283589.pdf) to see for yourselves). ## Before the competitions resumed after the winter break and on the basis of 1,129 matches, the countries were ranked as follows: 1. Norway 8.251 points 2. Denmark 8.240 3. Sweden 8.102 4. Estonia 8.100 5. England 8.065 6. Germany 8.056 7. France 8.041 8. Ukraine 8.015 9. Spain 7.993 10. Switzerland 7.958 * * * As things stand above, England is unlikely to get the automatic UEFA Cup spot Manchester City got 2 years ago as it seems to be being fought out betwen Norway and Denmark and if Newcastle United are anything to go by I wouldn’t be surprised if England drop below the 8.0 coefficient required to be eligible for a Fair Play UEFA Cup slot anyway. If you want to see what is taken into consideration regarding the coefficient of associations which UEFA gives marks for check out the bottom of this page -\> [http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/fairplay.html](http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/fairplay.html) So what Fair Play table should we be looking at for England? The English FA Fair Play league is judged on the following: Red & Yellow Cards. You start off the match with 10 points. If your player gets sent off you get docked 3 points, if your player gets a yellow card you get docked 1 point. Positive play: maximum 10 points Positive aspects: attacking tactics, acceleration of the game, efforts to gain time, and continued pursuit of goals. Negative aspects: deceleration of the game, time-wasting, tactics based on foul-play, play-acting, etc. In general terms positive play correlates with the numer of goal-scoring chances created and the number of goals scored. Respect of the opponent: maximum 7 points Assessement should be based on positive attitudes (e.g. helping an injured opponent) rather than infringements. Respect of the referee: maximum 7 points A positive attitude towards the referee (and assistant referees), including the acceptance of doubtful decisions without protest, should be rewarded. Behaviour of team officials: maximum 6 points Postive and negative aspects of the behaviour of team officials should be assessed. E.g. whether they calm or provoke angry players or fans, how they accept the referee’s decisions, etc. Co-operation with the media should also be considered as a factor. The only differences between the way the English FA do it and UEFA do it for associations is that the points are spread out differently for the English Fair Play league as the English FA do not take crowd behaviour into consideration whereas UEFA do. The latest fair play table (for March 2005) can be seen here -\> [http://www.premierleague.com/public/downloads/publications/Fair%20Play%20Mar%2005.pdf](http://www.premierleague.com/public/downloads/publications/Fair%20Play%20Mar%2005.pdf) Conclusion As things stand I doubt England will even get into the draw for the UEFA Cup spot via the Fair Play league, but if they do then it will be between us and Norwich with Charlton as an outside chance for claiming that one spot to get into the draw. I also feel if we get into the draw we will have a very high chance of getting a UEFA slot as there will be 2 spots for about 7 or 8 teams and I like those odds. (Ipswich did it against 17 teams at the end of the day). Hope this was useful to you. Owl’s pointy-headed pal. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/505 "2005-04-04T12:19:50Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Postive and negative aspects of the behaviour of team officials should be assessed. E.g. whether they calm or provoke angry players or fans, how they accept the referee’s decisions, etc. Co-operation with the media should also be considered as a factor. Shall we take another look at ‘that’ Delia moment? 😃 Thanks, that just about makes sense - more so than in 2002, when I was away from Suffolk and couldn’t find anybody who knew what the hell it was all about. I know that I don’t want to know about the national ‘coefficient’ gubbins, given that it’ll be as ludicrous and unrepresentative as the regular national rankings. Just the knowledge that Norwich will need to be very lucky is enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/506 "2005-04-04T13:42:56Z")
Am I understand that UEFA are awarding a spot in Europe for “being nice”? This sounds like something the PC Police would do here. Very strange. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/507 "2005-04-04T14:47:14Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Am I understand that UEFA are awarding a spot in Europe for “being nice”? This sounds like something the PC Police would do here. Very strange. You have it in one. The nicest team from the nicest country gets a place. Bollocks isn’t it? There’s also an award for this in the European Championship (england have won this in the past - we’d rather have won the actual football thing) ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/508 "2005-04-04T16:13:32Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > You have it in one. The nicest team from the nicest country gets a place. Bollocks isn’t it? There’s also an award for this in the European Championship (england have won this in the past - we’d rather have won the actual football thing) The award for this in most American sports is: Last Place. Ok, not totally true, but winning can get forgiveness for a variety of sins, while being nice and losing will usually cost you your job. ---
**Author:** ![Legolamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Legolamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legolamb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/509 "2005-04-04T18:15:34Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Negative aspects: deceleration of > the game, time-wasting, tactics based on foul-play, **play-acting** , etc. Hmm… I wonder why Italy aren’t near the 8.0 mark? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/510 "2005-04-05T22:16:02Z")
I just saw a comment on another message board that Israel were awarded a 3-0 victory over France because France illegally used Viera. I don’t see confirmation anywhere, though, not on FIFA or UEFA sites. If this is true it’s huge, as it puts France bottom of the table for qualifying and puts Israel on top. Anyone know if this is true or just some idiot taking the piss? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/511 "2005-04-05T22:27:26Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > I just saw a comment on another message board that Israel were awarded a 3-0 victory over France because France illegally used Viera. I don’t see confirmation anywhere, though, not on FIFA or UEFA sites. If this is true it’s huge, as it puts France bottom of the table for qualifying and puts Israel on top. > > Anyone know if this is true or just some idiot taking the piss? Possibly an April Fool’s joke? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/512 "2005-04-05T22:35:09Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > Possibly an April Fool’s joke? A few days too late. Or maybe he saw something posted somewhere a few days ago and was too dense to check the date. Anyway, it’s fun to scream “CITE?” over there. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/513 "2005-04-06T10:36:26Z")
Re the France thing: C’est balles. C’est un domage, mais n’est pas vrais! The bin dippers did well last night (I didn’t give them a hope) but that away goal could come back to haunt them. I couldn’t watch the opening bit as I have a Boris Johnson level of dislike of scousers and sentimentality, but once they got the mawk-athon out of the way it was a corking game. BTW did anyone see Phil Neal get royally stitched up in the Observer Sport Monthly - very good stuff indeed? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/514 "2005-04-06T11:19:01Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Re the France thing: C’est balles. C’est un domage, mais n’est pas vrais! That’s what I’m thinking. It’s just odd because it wasn’t some schmoe posting, but one of the moderators. C’est la vie. > [@](#): > > The bin dippers did well last night (I didn’t give them a hope) but that away goal could come back to haunt them. I couldn’t watch the opening bit as I have a Boris Johnson level of dislike of scousers and sentimentality, but once they got the mawk-athon out of the way it was a corking game. What did you think of Lyonnais v PSV? I like PSV’s chances a lot better now that they’ve got that away draw and goal. Everyone was saying that Liverpool and PSV were the easier teams, so I’d like to seem them both go through. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/515 "2005-04-06T11:43:47Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > That’s what I’m thinking. It’s just odd because it wasn’t some schmoe posting, but one of the moderators. C’est la vie. > > What did you think of Lyonnais v PSV? I like PSV’s chances a lot better now that they’ve got that away draw and goal. Everyone was saying that Liverpool and PSV were the easier teams, so I’d like to seem them both go through. I didn’t see it. I will tonight break the habit of a lifetime and watch Chelsea play football. In common with CFC’s manager I will not be at the game, but in a “quiet calm place”. I’m going to Arsenals European Trophy Room. Or I might go to the pub. I see that CFC have extended Mourinho’s contract and given him a million quid a year rise (Americans: a million pounds sterling is an awful lot of dollars - however in SW London it’s the price of a small detached house). God, I hope they lose! ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/516 "2005-04-06T13:55:56Z")
I thought Liverpool played out of their skins first half - Juve looked shell-shocked for most of the 45 mins. Given that Liverpool had been totally written off by most pundits I think it’s an excellent results - I agree the away goal could be a huge problem, means a 1-0 will would be enough for Juve. Good result though - two excellent strikes from unlikely sources. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/517 "2005-04-06T20:43:29Z")
Good effort from Chelsea tonight, but the penalty in stoppage time was just stupid. Bayern have got to fancy it now - a 2-0 home win puts them through, right? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/518 "2005-04-06T21:22:52Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > Good effort from Chelsea tonight, but the penalty in stoppage time was just stupid. > > Bayern have got to fancy it now - a 2-0 home win puts them through, right? How often have Chelsea been shut out this season? It will be an interesting return leg, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/519 "2005-04-07T11:11:03Z")
Chelsea holdall the aces. Bayern have to come at them - Chelsea only really have to score once to secure the tie. Then it’s 'Pool or Juve in the semi - which they really should be able to cope with. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867/520 "2005-04-09T12:37:51Z")
I am not a happy bunny. The price of my season ticket next year? £950.00 - ie a bull’s eye off a grand. For fuck’s sake. I could buy Bolton for that (the whole town)! It’s not the most expensive either - that’s £1350.00 How much do you lot pay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/english-premier-league-and-football-in-general/287867.md?page=27)