# Enlighten the newb: Who are the SDMB woo-woos who argue WELL? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 19, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760 "2010-06-19T07:05:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/81 "2010-06-21T15:54:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There’s no such thing as “science as God fundamentalists.” Actually, there is, and they’re annoying. Fortunately we have few if any Dopers who are guilty of it. An example, to illustrate my point: the question of tachyons. the hypothetical particles delimited to FTL speeds, and with some peculiar characteristics in consequence, came up. It’s important to note in this regard that they evidently conform to relativity theory – just as no particle with real positive mass can achieve light speed, no tachyon, if they do exist, can slow down to it. Like gravitons ad gluons, they are not directly observable but in theory detectable through their influence on other particles – indeed, the one attempted disproof makes contrary-to-fact assumptions about what that influence on photons would be and uses that to demonstrate their probable non-existence. Okay? Interesting if abstruse excursion into theoretical physics, right? Along comes a pontificating funda-scientificist (I refuse to use “scientist” of them even as part of a pejorative) and pronounces, with the _gravitas_ of Charlton Heston playing Einstein parting the waters of the ornamental pond at the Institute for Advanced Physics, “They don’t exist, because _Einstein proved that nothing can go faster than light._” :smack: Way to reduce a complex and abstruse bit of fundamental physics to a few words of dogma! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/82 "2010-06-21T16:35:49Z")
I would say those are people who just don’t understand science. It’s not that they’re too “fundamentalist” about it, it’s their knowledge is incomplete or mistaken. Proper understanding and adherence to the method does not result in these mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/83 "2010-06-21T16:58:29Z")
The problem is if something \*can \*be defended rationally, it’s no longer “woo”. It’s similar to the conundrum of psychology: if a biological cause for the dysfunction can be found, treatment is taken over by the endocrinologists or neurologists, leaving only the mysterious stuff the purview of psychologists. Then people complain that psychologists deal with “illnesses” that there is no biological basis for. And **Jackmanni** , I know plenty of alt medicine practitioners, including myself, who have spoken out against Essiac and other dangerous “therapies” like Raindrop Therapy. I’ve never even heard of the other one you mention. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/84 "2010-06-21T17:10:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There’s no such thing as “science as God fundamentalists.” I appreciate the Dio Zone and all, but there are in fact. The kind of people who are susceptible to “woo” can latch onto science just as easily–and then they latch onto it at a particular point that they think they understand and all OTHER scientists who progress are just making shit up or trying to discredit their guy etc. You’ve never met an atheist who thinks quantum mechanics is also woo and won’t accept any evidence otherwise? I have a tendency to distinguish between “science” the process that results from rational, empirical thinking, and “Science” the set of beliefs that a pseudo-rationalist woo latches onto and worships in the absence of critical thought. No one accuses the latter of actually understanding the “Science” he worships, mind you, although he will tell you he does (better than you, in fact). ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/85 "2010-06-21T18:02:50Z")
Regarding the “fundamentalist” atheists, I just want to point out that for a lot of the usual suspects on this board that don’t believe in God or religion, they sure do seem obsessed by it. Look at **Der Tris**. Every other post is about God. He’ll go off on a anti-religion screed if somebody mentions that they believe the Angels can win the pennant.\* **Dan Blather** is the same way. It cracks me up that people who profess to not believing in God just can’t stop talking about the concept. \*I’m skeptical, but they are 39-33 so I am not going to rule out the possibility. Call me agnostic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/86 "2010-06-21T19:43:38Z")
What would something faster than the speed of light look like? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/87 "2010-06-21T19:48:28Z")
.siht ekiL ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/88 "2010-06-21T22:01:28Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Regarding the “fundamentalist” atheists, I just want to point out that for a lot of the usual suspects on this board that don’t believe in God or religion, they sure do seem obsessed by it. Look at **Der Tris**. Every other post is about God. He’ll go off on a anti-religion screed if somebody mentions that they believe the Angels can win the pennant.\* **Dan Blather** is the same way. It cracks me up that people who profess to not believing in God just can’t stop talking about the concept. You exaggerate. But as for my motivation, religion is relentlessly pushed down my throat, and I constantly see believers trying to force their dogma on others and in general making life worse for everyone. My attitude towards religion is a reaction to the religionist’s attitude towards everyone else; which is why it’s religion specifically I talk about so much and not, say, the stupidity of believing in good luck charms. People who believe in lucky rabbit’s feet aren’t trying to write Rabbit’s Footism into law, or killing people over it. > [@Zeriel](#): > > I appreciate the Dio Zone and all, but there are in fact. The kind of people who are susceptible to “woo” can latch onto science just as easily–and then they latch onto it at a particular point that they think they understand and all OTHER scientists who progress are just making shit up or trying to discredit their guy etc. > > You’ve never met an atheist who thinks quantum mechanics is also woo and won’t accept any evidence otherwise? > > I have a tendency to distinguish between “science” the process that results from rational, empirical thinking, and “Science” the set of beliefs that a pseudo-rationalist woo latches onto and worships in the absence of critical thought. No one accuses the latter of actually understanding the “Science” he worships, mind you, although he will tell you he does (better than you, in fact). The word you are looking for is [pseudoscience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience). > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > .siht ekiL Actually, yes sort of if you could see it at all. As I understand it you’d see it apparently start at its destination and move back to its origin point. (I’m not a physicist though) ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/89 "2010-06-21T22:45:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But as for my motivation, religion is relentlessly pushed down my throat, I see this from some of the more rabid atheists on this board, but it is bullshit. I live in the bible belt and haven’t been to church in _years_, but nobody is trying to push religion down my throat. No one talks about religion unless I bring it up, which I never do, so no one actually knows or particularly cares what my beliefs are. You could do the same thing if you didn’t talk about your atheism all the damn time. I have a suspicion that you bring up your atheism in real life just to get people to respond with something religious. That way you can bitch and moan about being persecuted by all these “religionists” and satisfy your pathetic martyr complex. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/90 "2010-06-21T23:04:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The word you are looking for is [pseudoscience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience). “Pseudoscience” can describe the beliefs, but really, the “Cult of Science (that is small enough to wrap my brain around)” functions enough like a religion that I think it “deserves” its own name. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/91 "2010-06-21T23:05:47Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I see this from some of the more rabid atheists on this board, but it is bullshit. I live in the bible belt and haven’t been to church in _years_, but nobody is trying to push religion down my throat. No one talks about religion unless I bring it up, which I never do, so no one actually knows or particularly cares what my beliefs are. You could do the same thing if you didn’t talk about your atheism all the damn time. I have a suspicion that you bring up your atheism in real life just to get people to respond with something religious. That way you can bitch and moan about being persecuted by all these “religionists” and satisfy your pathetic martyr complex. Exactly, The fact that you think religion is being shoved down your throat is a faith-based belief, one that you do not test. It is based entirely on confirmation bias. You find religion annoying, so you think every time it is brought up as being shoved down your throat. And thus you respond negatively every time. It doesn’t matter that your negative responses actually make things worse by making theists defensive, and thus more likely to continue to talk about religion and annoy you. I will point out though, in Der Trihs’s defense that people in the Bible belt tend to not mention religion as often specifically because we can assume that most people around us agree. People who don’t like religion tend to leave the Bible Belt after highschool. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/92 "2010-06-21T23:05:53Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I see this from some of the more rabid atheists on this board, but it is bullshit. I live in the bible belt and haven’t been to church in _years_, but nobody is trying to push religion down my throat. No one talks about religion unless I bring it up, which I never do, so no one actually knows or particularly cares what my beliefs are. That sounds quite implausible. And not at all like most people describe life in the Bible Belt. > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > You could do the same thing if you didn’t talk about your atheism all the damn time. No, I couldn’t. I almost always am responding to someone else bringing up religion. I post on other forums where religion isn’t typically brought up, and few if any people there know I’m an atheist; I bring up my atheism so often here because the believers wag their religion in front of everyone else so often. > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I have a suspicion that you bring up your atheism in real life just to get people to respond with something religious. I have no interest in being subjected to prejudice, assault or vandalism so no I don’t mention my atheism near people who can come after me physically. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/93 "2010-06-21T23:33:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I bring up my atheism so often here because the believers wag their religion in front of everyone else so often. Why can’t ya be a little more “live and let live” about it? I’m an atheist too, but around here, I seem to spend more time defending believers from some of your more extreme rants. So somebody worships sky fairies. So what? They still like beer, or football, or movies, or sci-fi etc. Why do you have to jump in their shit, instead of just talking with them about more fun stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/94 "2010-06-22T00:28:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Why can’t ya be a little more “live and let live” about it? I’m an atheist too, but around here, I seem to spend more time defending believers from some of your more extreme rants. So somebody worships sky fairies. So what? They still like beer, or football, or movies, or sci-fi etc. Why do you have to jump in their shit, instead of just talking with them about more fun stuff? It’s weird to hear a voice of tolerance this late in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/95 "2010-06-22T01:51:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It’s ironic that in the very thread that likely inspired **Cat Whisperer** ’s remark about skeptical “intolerance” (the one about so-called “liberation treatment” for MS), the OP mentions that a cardiologist skeptic has been “blocked from posting” (i.e. banned) from multiple sites that discuss the treatment.\ I hadn’t actually thought of that thread - I was just thinking of the overall tone of this board. I think your representation of the medical community in that thread was fair and realistic - I want very much for liberation treatment to be the real deal, but I know it’s far too early to make any judgements about it. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/96 "2010-06-22T04:35:08Z")
I still want to know what a nobwipe is. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/97 "2010-06-22T04:36:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > \And **Jackmanni** , I know plenty of alt medicine practitioners, including myself, who have spoken out against Essiac and other dangerous “therapies” like Raindrop Therapy. I’ve never even heard of the other one you mention. Then allow me to introduce you to the late [Hulda Clark](http://www.skepdic.com/huldaclark.html), courtesy of the Skeptic’s Dictionary and what the [Swiss Study Group for Complementary and Alternative Methods in Cancer](http://www.swisscancer.ch/dt_fr/content/orange/pdf/skak/01_clark_e.pdf) (warning pdf) has to say about her treatment. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/98 "2010-06-22T16:56:42Z")
> [@detop](#): > > Then allow me to introduce you to the late [Hulda Clark](http://www.skepdic.com/huldaclark.html), courtesy of the Skeptic’s Dictionary and what the [Swiss Study Group for Complementary and > Alternative Methods in Cancer](http://www.swisscancer.ch/dt_fr/content/orange/pdf/skak/01_clark_e.pdf) (warning pdf) has to say about her treatment. Good lord. I don’t have to go further than the first line of her quote to write her off as a whackjob. Thanks for the introduction…I think… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/99 "2010-06-22T17:50:54Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > I still want to know what a nobwipe is. **ivan** seemed pretty confident that I am definitely a nobwipe (although I’m still dubious that he’s spelling it correctly), so from that I’m guessing it involves some combination of my three principal qualities: being awesome, crying during sex and spitting when you talk. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760/100 "2010-06-22T17:53:01Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > **ivan** seemed pretty confident that I am definitely a nobwipe (although I’m still dubious that he’s spelling it correctly), so from that I’m guessing it involves some combination of my three principal qualities: being awesome, crying during sex and **spitting when you talk**. You’re not a giraffe at all! You…_llama_! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlighten-the-newb-who-are-the-sdmb-woo-woos-who-argue-well/543760.md?page=6)