# Enlisting with a kiddy record **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 18, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488 "2015-07-18T05:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Profdriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71e660/32.png) [@Profdriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profdriver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/21 "2015-07-18T16:31:54Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > I think the actual question has a time limit, like “ever smoked marijuana in the past 7 years”. > > That subdural hematoma - I can say pretty confidently that \*that \*won’t show up. That is, they do not have any way to get access to your medical records unless > > 1. You tell them. Tell them, and they will demand a copy of those records. That’s how they get them. > 2. Your choose a job that requires top secret or higher, where they \*might \* be able to figure it out. Probably not. The medical records system in the USA is such a colossal mess that it’s almost impossible for the government to find out even if they want to. > > I suspect the misdemeanor threat against the security guard is the only thing you have to worry about. You can get 1 waiver for a misdemeanor, probably. > > The only way the President might affect things is if a Republican starts another major war. Lindsay Graham, a candidate, was actually talking a lot of trash about he would go to war against Iran to stop them getting a nuke. Iran has triple the population of Iraq and a substantially more powerful military, so they would take massive casualties in such a war and would probably approve a lot more waivers for recruits, similar to what happened in the last set of wars. > > You don’t want to go to war. You want to get in, get stationed somewhere decent with a fun job, get laid in the local town, and enjoy your time off in the barracks playing video games or other fun activities. Wars aren’t any fun for anyone but the defense contractors who supply the weapons and expensive services. My subdural- it happened when I was 17 and I was in the hospital and turned 18, I was in the hospital for only about 2 weeks but when you take your physical they still probably can’t see the subdural ? If I only need to disclose the misdemeanor that’s what I’ll do ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/22 "2015-07-18T16:47:41Z")
> [@Profdriver](#): > > My subdural- it happened when I was 17 and I was in the hospital and turned 18, I was in the hospital for only about 2 weeks but when you take your physical they still probably can’t see the subdural ? If I only need to disclose the misdemeanor that’s what I’ll do Is there a massive scar on your head they can see that looks like an incision mark? If so, yeah, they’ll spot it. They aren’t going to MRI or xray your head if that’s what you are asking. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/23 "2015-07-18T16:54:04Z")
You know, the military is nothing amazing. I can tell you from personal experience it’s like getting a blue collar job with worse pay and worse working conditions. If you can get a local community college to teach you how to fix automobile brakes, do A/C or electrical or other skilled trades, etc, I think you’ll be a lot better off. The pay is better, you’ll be paid a fair hourly rate and not be expected to work more than a normal workweek without compensation, you have a lot more time to chase women and do other things young men like to do. Sure, you have to pay the tuition. Where I’m at, community colleges are very cheap - a couple grand a semester max. If you can come up with the dough, even if you gotta borrow from the folks or a credit card, it’s a heck of a lot better than that paper they make you sign at MEPs where you are giving them the legal right to your ass for 8 years, and the right to send you into dangerous situations that have a high chance of you being hurt or killed. (note that every contract is _really_ 8 years although usually they only expect you to actively show up for 4) Unlike the military, civilian employers don’t have unlimited access to any juvenile marks against you and most of them will never be able to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Profdriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71e660/32.png) [@Profdriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profdriver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/24 "2015-07-18T17:00:32Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > You know, the military is nothing amazing. I can tell you from personal experience it’s like getting a blue collar job with worse pay and worse working conditions. If you can get a local community college to teach you how to fix automobile brakes, do A/C or electrical or other skilled trades, etc, I think you’ll be a lot better off. The pay is better, you’ll be paid a fair hourly rate and not be expected to work more than a normal workweek without compensation, you have a lot more time to chase women and do other things young men like to do. > > Sure, you have to pay the tuition. Where I’m at, community colleges are very cheap - a couple grand a semester max. If you can come up with the dough, even if you gotta borrow from the folks or a credit card, it’s a heck of a lot better than that paper they make you sign at MEPs where you are giving them the legal right to your ass for 8 years, and the right to send you into dangerous situations that have a high chance of you being hurt or killed. (note that every contract is _really_ 8 years although usually they only expect you to actively show up for 4) > > Unlike the military, civilian employers don’t have unlimited access to any juvenile marks against you and most of them will never be able to find out. I got a little circle about half an inch in diameter I’d play off as a birthmark, I’m doing the civilian thing working full time and about to start classes but it is a terrible lifestyle in a terrible city. So what should and shouldn’t I disclose as far as the background checks? I am able to pass a POS background for firearms, is the military that different? When I did the misdemeanor threat they scanned my fingers on some computer ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/25 "2015-07-18T17:02:44Z")
> [@Profdriver](#): > > I got a little circle about half an inch in diameter I’d play off as a birthmark, I’m doing the civilian thing working full time and about to start classes but it is a terrible lifestyle in a terrible city. So what should and shouldn’t I disclose as far as the background checks? I am able to pass a POS background for firearms, is the military that different? When I did the misdemeanor threat they scanned my fingers on some computer Yes. It sounds like they got your ass on that one. Man. Saying “stop pounding on my door or I’ll beat your ass” sounds like background noise in a rough neighborhood - I’d expect you’d hear that said a dozen times a day. Sounds like you got sold up the river on that one. [This site](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/criminal4.htm) and [this site](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marinejoin/a/criminal.-um-.htm) say you need a waiver for **two** or more “serious offenses”. A little mary jane odor in the bathroom isn’t listed, nor is making a verbal threat, but it might be on the list, I only skimmed it briefly. Point is, it doesn’t look that bad. If you disclose the threat one, you won’t actually need a waiver - it’s just 1 misdemeanor. The brain surgery to relieve the hematoma sounds like a bigger threat to your chances. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/26 "2015-07-18T17:06:16Z")
(“KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?”) I’m not convinced … ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/27 "2015-07-18T17:09:51Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > (“KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?”) > I’m not convinced … For saying something dumb about Obama and the layoffs in the military? Man, if saying some dumb shit would stop you from joining the military…man. There wouldn’t be anyone in it. The number of soldiers I met that didn’t say some dumb things or be fixated on dumb opinions was like 5%. The whole reason why they want those 18 year olds right outta high school to be the ones toting guns and running into danger is they can find a whole bunch of them dumb enough to do it. Enlistment criteria, etc, are leftover from the draft days of the 1940s…where it actually was a suicidally dumb thing to do for many servicemembers. ---
**Author:** ![Profdriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71e660/32.png) [@Profdriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profdriver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/28 "2015-07-18T17:12:33Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Yes. It sounds like they got your ass on that one. Man. Saying “stop pounding on my door or I’ll beat your ass” sounds like background noise in a rough neighborhood - I’d expect you’d hear that said a dozen times a day. Sounds like you got sold up the river on that one. > > [This site](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/criminal4.htm) and [this site](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marinejoin/a/criminal.-um-.htm) say you need a waiver for **two** or more “serious offenses”. > > A little mary jane odor in the bathroom isn’t listed, nor is making a verbal threat, but it might be on the list, I only skimmed it briefly. > > Point is, it doesn’t look that bad. If you disclose the threat one, you won’t actually need a waiver - it’s just 1 misdemeanor. The brain surgery to relieve the hematoma sounds like a bigger threat to your chances. Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. Is informal probation as a juvenile for the marijuana something on that list? ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/29 "2015-07-18T17:17:13Z")
> [@Profdriver](#): > > Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. Is informal probation as a juvenile for the marijuana something on that list? You can read it yourself. I don’t see it. I don’t know what “informal probation” means - you’d have to ask an attorney in your state. If a judge didn’t actually convict you, which is what it sounds like to me, then that means you aren’t actually guilty of the offense legally. That is, even though you were punished, you weren’t actually found by a judge or jury to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and so the military cannot deny your enlistment for it. My gut feel, from hearing everything you said, is that this isn’t what will stop you. I think if they hear you had brain surgery you _do_ have to get a waiver, without a doubt. That’s what will cost you - a “waiver” is a piece of paper someone has to sign off on. If you don’t need a waiver because of 1 misdemeanor and you don’t mention the MJ or the brain surgery, and they don’t find out, you’ll join the ranks of the tens of millions of other people they let in. When I was at basic training, some recruits and I were chatting in the bathroom one time. One recruit had a good laugh and wanted everyone in the group to share all the lies they’d told to get in. \*I \*personally had seen a psychologist - recruiter told me not to disclose for a similar reason as yours. Nothing good can come of it. ---
**Author:** ![Profdriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71e660/32.png) [@Profdriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profdriver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/30 "2015-07-18T17:17:35Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > (“KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?”) > I’m not convinced … As far as rehabilitation goes these minor offenses occurred over 4 years ago, I now have a CDL and no run ins since. I’m in college and come from a military family. In your opinion, what do I need to work on? My hobby is coyote hunting so I’m not a yuppie you seem to think I am. I really hope I can join up out of respect for my grandfather, navy vet in the Korean War. We ahave all done, thought, and said things we wish we hadn’t as kids. I’m sitting in my apartment reading the Chris Kyle story and it was the final push I needed, showing me what a real man is made of. I’m not saying I’m perfect now, but I strive to be a leader close to like that man was, one day. Hard work is nothing new to me ---
**Author:** ![Profdriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71e660/32.png) [@Profdriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profdriver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/31 "2015-07-18T17:18:44Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > You can read it yourself. I don’t see it. I don’t know what “informal probation” means - you’d have to ask an attorney in your state. If a judge didn’t actually convict you, which is what it sounds like to me, then that means you aren’t actually guilty of the offense legally. Not guilty of the offense under state law can differ once under military code. Does that hold true for this in your experience? ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/32 "2015-07-18T17:28:56Z")
> [@Profdriver](#): > > Not guilty of the offense under state law can differ once under military code. Does that hold true for this in your experience? I think I do remember that they consider things like deferred adjudication to be guilt. It’s still not necessarily enough to sink you - one of the links I gave showed that the military groups misdemeanor offenses into groups. I bet at least one of your 2 offenses is not considered serious, and you get a larger quota for non serious offenses before you need a waiver. Talking like the locals in a rough neighborhood or emerging from a bathroom like cheech and chong don’t sound like reasons for the military to say no. I wish you luck. ---
**Author:** ![Profdriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71e660/32.png) [@Profdriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profdriver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/33 "2015-07-18T17:41:39Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Yes. It sounds like they got your ass on that one. Man. Saying “stop pounding on my door or I’ll beat your ass” sounds like background noise in a rough neighborhood - I’d expect you’d hear that said a dozen times a day. Sounds like you got sold up the river on that one. > > [This site](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/criminal4.htm) and [this site](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marinejoin/a/criminal.-um-.htm) say you need a waiver for **two** or more “serious offenses”. > > A little mary jane odor in the bathroom isn’t listed, nor is making a verbal threat, but it might be on the list, I only skimmed it briefly. > > Point is, it doesn’t look that bad. If you disclose the threat one, you won’t actually need a waiver - it’s just 1 misdemeanor. The brain surgery to relieve the hematoma sounds like a bigger threat to your chances. That first site says a waiver is needed even for expulsion from school, when I was 15 I was expelled for leaving a leather man in my backpack after fishing. Is this something else I’m fucked over for ? ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/34 "2015-07-18T17:55:13Z")
> [@Profdriver](#): > > That first site says a waiver is needed even for expulsion from school, when I was 15 I was expelled for leaving a leather man in my backpack after fishing. Is this something else I’m fucked over for ? If there’s a way for them to find out it sounds like it. The juice ain’t worth the squeeze, brother. I regret joining the military. Not deeply - they treated me ok, I had some good times. However, in retrospect, I realize I would have made more money and had a better time during those fews years if I had chosen the correct civilian path. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/35 "2015-07-18T18:02:48Z")
Oh, I read on a[this site](https://forums.goarmy.com/thread/241144) that it does sound like the recruiter has the ability to check your background. (well, he’ll fill out a form, and someone else will do it). Say you don’t remember anything else but the assault one. After all, you’re just a dumb kid trying to become a marine. I doubt they’ll hold it against you - you yourself didn’t know that expulsion counts. Find out what they actually can access. Go from there. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/36 "2015-07-18T18:08:52Z")
> [@Profdriver](#): > > Good advice your the first one to take this seriously. I get it now. Your definition of “good advice” is “What you want to hear”. Well, The Real World[sup]tm[/sup] does not actually work that way. Others have taken you seriously and given you actually good advice. You just don’t like that advice. > [@](#): > > What if he says he doesn’t have access to background, and that’s a MEPS thing? Two things here: [ol][li]The recruiter is not likely to tell you that he does or does not have access to any of that. What he will do is have you complete an application for enlistment. That application will cause a background check to be initiated. More news for you: it’s not the recruiter who does that check.[/li][li]MEPS is where you’ll end up getting in-processed when and if your application is approved.[/ol][/li] Again: It is a very bad idea to wait until after you’ve signed an enlistment contract to spring your little gems on the military. Even more news for you: the military is pretty proficient in dealing with people who commit enlistment fraud. Oh, in case anyone, like your so-called vet friends, has forgotten to tell you this: enlistment fraud is a federal crime. > [@](#): > > Are 3 waivers that bad? Yep. I retired fifteen years ago and for my entire tenure in the military, even one waiver was a bit bumpy for enlistment applicants. Two was the maximum for as long as I can remember. 3 wasn’t worth processing. > [@](#): > > Will presidency change anything? No. > [@](#): > > I said what I said about Obama because he just cut 40000 jobs out of the armed forces. Horse apples. > [@](#): > > Which branch has the lowest standards? navy? None of them has the lowest standards. They’re all the military. > [@](#): > > I’ll be going back to my recruiter soon, but he’s looking into only 2 waivers at the moment, I wonder if I could get a third in there Yeah, I bet he’ll be thrilled when you spring that on him. Here’s more advice from a veteran: Stay away from the military. You’re not ready for it. Part of being ready for the military, IMHO, is being honest about your background when you apply for enlistment. Your story here doesn’t really pass the smell test. You’re obviously fudging some things in your telling of why you need waivers. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/37 "2015-07-18T19:06:11Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Here’s more advice from a veteran: Stay away from the military. You’re not ready for it. Part of being ready for the military, IMHO, is being honest about your background when you apply for enlistment. Your story here doesn’t really pass the smell test. You’re obviously fudging some things in your telling of why you need waivers. Regardless of whether he’s “ready” for it, this was kind of a bad kid as far as the “system” is concerned. He’s got a lot of strikes that may in fact prevent him from being able to get in at all. I feel that your last statement is a deflection - you know damn well that this kid isn’t any worse than many of the soldiers you served with. I think you purposefully want to believe that he’s lying about his story because to believe otherwise would be to admit “the system” has probably screwed him. He probably didn’t have a competent attorney to stand up for him when he told off the security guard. When you were in high school, an odor of reefer probably was not enough to get you actually charged with a crime. Instead, the principle might have given a stern talking to and that was that. That leatherman in a backpack is a consequence of ‘zero tolerance’ policies, where even innocent tools that can be used like a weapon can get you expelled. Again, kid didn’t have an attorney to fight it. When you were in high school, those policies did not exist. And, finally, when you first joined the military, they did not have computer record systems that could actually find everything. The only thing actually forcing you to disclose everything was the stern eyed glare of the recruiter telling you to fess up, son. Probably that era was the time when the military was still an alternative to jail - if you served 20 years from 1980 to 2000, not actually sure about that one. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/38 "2015-07-18T19:08:34Z")
Your psychoanalysis of my post fails. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/39 "2015-07-18T19:10:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Your psychoanalysis of my post fails. Maybe I got your attitude wrong, but you do know about how laws have changed since you were in school, correct? They have changed radically from the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488/40 "2015-07-18T19:16:21Z")
You got a lot wrong in post #37. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enlisting-with-a-kiddy-record/725488.md?page=3)