# Enough from the defenders of rapists already **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392 "2014-11-23T05:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/201 "2014-11-24T19:22:52Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Of course, because all the same things happened to his victims that happen frequently to rape victims…especially those in the public eye. Paula Jones was dragged through the mud over it, it was disgusting. But, I was refuting Clothahump’s point that _people in this thread_ are giving Clinton a pass and not Cosby. I think Clinton got by because 1) the Republicans made a political issue of it, which caused Democrats to rally to his side, and 2) because he remained president which forced people to deal with him on other weighty matters, which tended to overshadow the accusations more and more as the public lost interest. Public opinion is very fickle and inconsistent. If you can survive the initial furor and remain relevant, these types of accusations get sort of sunsetted as the story about you changes tone and people move on to the next outrage. It’s a lot like how Obama put the Jeremiah Wright issue to bed by giving a well received speech about race relations, or - going back a lot further - how Ronald Reagan put to bed concerns about his age by making a clever quip about it in his second debate with Mondale. Or Al Sharpton, who has survived enough despicable behaviour to sink five ordinary politicians with no apologies, but grows in stature and public acceptance by the year. I don’t know about any specific people in this particular thread. But there’s no doubt that the level of condemnation of Clinton’s indiscretions is far lower at this time than that of Cosby. There’s no logical justification for the inconsistencies - that’s just the way people are. That said, if at some point all the new revelations subside and the stories dry up and Cosby can keep his career going on at some level in the interim, I wouldn’t be surprised to him too outlast the allegations and for these stories to become a footnote in his career story. And then _he’ll_ be the example of inconsistency when the next guy is outed for similar crimes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/202 "2014-11-24T20:00:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know about any specific people in this particular thread. But there’s no doubt that the level of condemnation of Clinton’s indiscretions is far lower at this time than that of Cosby. There’s no logical justification for the inconsistencies - that’s just the way people are. You can’t say “no logical justification” when the accusations are quite different in both their severity and quantity. That could certainly be a logical justification, though I’m sure some people either don’t know about the accusations against Clinton or dismiss them because they like him (or agree with him politically). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/203 "2014-11-24T20:12:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can’t say “no logical justification” when the accusations are quite different in both their severity and quantity. That could certainly be a logical justification, though I’m sure some people either don’t know about the accusations against Clinton or dismiss them because they like him (or agree with him politically). He spoke at my undergrad commencement several years ago and honestly I’m a little stunned that there wasn’t more protesting about it at such a notoriously liberal school (University of Michigan.) I don’t remember any backlash about that at all. It’s exactly the sort of thing Michigan students _would_ protest. That’s part of the reason I’m surprised to only learn about these allegations now. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/204 "2014-11-24T20:27:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can’t say “no logical justification” when the accusations are quite different in both their severity and quantity. That could certainly be a logical justification, though I’m sure some people either don’t know about the accusations against Clinton or dismiss them because they like him (or agree with him politically). I don’t know if that holds. In particular, Jaunita Broadrick alleged that Clinton straight-up raped her - that’s pretty severe. And while come people have quibbled with her story (see [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Broaddrick) link), she seems credible to me. Of note: > [@](#): > > Five people have stated that Broaddrick told them about a rape shortly after it allegedly occurred. > [@](#): > > Broaddrick claimed she did not remember the exact date or even year in which she was allegedly raped, but she did supply the name of the hotel (Camelot), and the reason she was visiting Little Rock (a nursing home seminar) when the incident had allegedly occurred. NBC News found that a nursing conference was held in the Camelot Hotel on April 25, 1978. The hotel was located in the state capital, where news reports indicate Clinton was that day, also suggesting that he had no known official commitments that morning. The Clinton White House declined to release his official schedule for the date. Three weeks after this date, Broaddrick attended a Clinton fundraiser. According to The Wall Street Journal (February 19, 1999, p. A18), “Her [Broaddrick’s] friend Norma Rogers, a nurse who had accompanied her on the trip”, found Broaddrick distraught shortly after the time of the alleged attack. It’s hard to know the full extent of either man’s transgressions, especially after some of Clinton’s accusers were trashed in the media and since some of Cosby’s accusers are either alleging relatively benign harrassment and/or because their stories are shaky too. The thing is that many people avoid consideration of the frequency and severity of Cosby’s transgressions by virtue of a zero-tolerance attitude, which if applied to Clinton would disqualify him too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/205 "2014-11-24T20:34:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know if that holds. In particular, Jaunita Broadrick alleged that Clinton straight-up raped her - that’s pretty severe. And while come people have quibbled with her story (see [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Broaddrick) link), she seems credible to me. Okay, I stand corrected on severity, but not quantity (unless I’m still missing knowledge of several additional accusations). ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/206 "2014-11-24T21:08:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ll have to cite that Cosby is conservative, not that this is particularly relevant to this thread. Telling young people they should work hard and not go into crime is not “conservative” – it’s “everyone”. He’s far more conservative that the vast majority of people in Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/207 "2014-11-24T21:10:03Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > But, I was refuting Clothahump’s point that _people in this thread_ are giving Clinton a pass and not Cosby. I didn’t limit it to people in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Eddie\_F](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@Eddie\_F](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eddie_F)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/208 "2014-11-24T21:52:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You did claim that the allegations from the possible rape victims were just hot air. You care about Cosby, but not them. You deserve to be Pitted. Man, **Monty** got a raw deal. (That’s all I got. Except that, as a person who was once falsely accused of something a lot more heinous than the Cos is being accused of - and having to deal with the knee-jerk assumptions that because I am a male member of the species, said bullshit allegations were 100% pure gospel truth - I’m not, _at all_, going to condemn the man based on the flimsy shit that’s been in the news and on social media of late. And, yeah, the OP comes across as nothing more than a gibbering zealot with an axe to grind and a not-too-firm grip on reality.) ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/209 "2014-11-24T22:10:24Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > He’s far more conservative that the vast majority of people in Hollywood. So are you, but that hasn’t stopped you from being universally admired. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/210 "2014-11-25T03:23:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know if that holds. In particular, Jaunita Broadrick alleged that Clinton straight-up raped her - that’s pretty severe. And while come people have quibbled with her story (see [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Broaddrick) link), she seems credible to me. Perhaps I’m misreading it, but the portion you quoted seems to indicate that she attended a Clinton fundraiser three weeks after he raped her. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/211 "2014-11-25T03:52:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps I’m misreading it, but the portion you quoted seems to indicate that she attended a Clinton fundraiser three weeks after he raped her. :dubious: How does that have anything to do with the credibility of her accusation? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/212 "2014-11-25T04:06:08Z")
Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/213 "2014-11-25T04:19:51Z")
Yes seriously. Have you not been reading the thread? The idea that it would be strange for victims of rape to continue associating with their rapist has been addressed several times. Also, to be honest, this is just something you _should_ know by being a functional human being. Of course victims often continue to associate with their rapists. There’s generally a lot more going on in a person’s life than just the fact of the rape itself. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/214 "2014-11-25T04:22:50Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Here’s what Cosby should be forced to do, and assumed guilty until he does so: defend himself. He should have to respond in public to every single woman accusing him of rape, to every assistant who said he helped cover it up. Again, realize we’re not in court so its perfectly fine to judge him. Until he gives his alternative to each accusation, assume that the number of people accusing him of rape means he’s guilty. I think Bill Cosby is a rapist, and every time he says “no comment” or refuses to talk about it, I think he’s trying to hide it. Until he responds to his critics, he’s guilty in my eyes To me this is incredibly unfair. If right now, five women, that knew where you lived and what you had been doing, were to come forward and say that you did what Cosby did over a period of six months between Jan and June 1995, how many of them could you convincingly refute? All? Two? Three? What would happen in reality - as soon as you start to “defend yourself” - unless you have a solid alibi for ALL of the cases, you will be judged guilty on the ones you simply don’t have enough information to refute. How is that better for you than remaining silent on all the cases? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/215 "2014-11-25T05:44:40Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > So you added a one word thumbs up to **even sven’s** points and consider that a post? Here is a hint. This is not Facebook. Oh, for fuck’s sake. We aren’t in junior high writing 150-word essays. He agreed with **even sven** and quoted her post in full because he believes people should read it. Just how long should his response have been? In response to one of the stupid questions repeatedly brought up in this thread as if it were a gotcha, there is no hard and fast number of accusations that make a person reach a decision, but there is a lot of smoke surrounding Cosby and I will exercise my right as a human being to match the patterns and believe the individual accusations I’ve heard. But the correct number can be one, and Cosby crossed that threshold many accusations ago. I often regret that my poor memory makes it difficult for me to remember who is whom on this board and how I feel about them (there are exceptions: **sven** positive and **clothy** negative, but it’s taken years to sink in). In this thread I’m impressed with **Spice Weasel** and **Frylock**. They are thoughtful and articulate and I will make an effort to remember that. I didn’t even skim their posts! Well, not after I realized they were really saying something. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/216 "2014-11-25T06:01:39Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Here’s what Cosby should be forced to do, and assumed guilty until he does so: defend himself. He should have to respond in public to every single woman accusing him of rape, to every assistant who said he helped cover it up. Again, realize we’re not in court so its perfectly fine to judge him. Until he gives his alternative to each accusation, assume that the number of people accusing him of rape means he’s guilty. It seems weird to me to have such a position. Do you think that’s what you would do if you were accused yourself of some heinous crime? For instance, isn’t the first advice given on this board to people who are involved in any sort of judicial process to shut the fuck up and don’t discuss it, even here? Isn’t it generally said that some random guy trying to defend himself is more likely than not to make himself appear guilty instead? Also what \*\*Bengangmo \*\*said : how could you possibly refute accusations regarding events that are decades old? I doubt I could refute the accusation of having raped someone two weeks ago, let alone 20 years ago. And if you were to only say “I didn’t do it”, that’s certainly not going to count as a convincing alternative for the public opinion. For instance, what kind of hypothetical public statement by this guy would convince you? If the answer is “none” or “something he’s incredibly unlikely to be able to provide even if innocent”, then there’s absolutely no point for him in making any statement. So, what would be a sufficient defense for you? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/217 "2014-11-25T12:34:42Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > In this thread I’m impressed with **Spice Weasel** and **Frylock**. They are thoughtful and articulate and I will make an effort to remember that. Thanks! I have the same intentions concerning **Spice Weasel** (who I think is female if I’m understanding correctly). I need to make sure to stop and read her posts when I see them. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/218 "2014-11-25T14:31:59Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Yes seriously. Have you not been reading the thread? The idea that it would be strange for victims of rape to continue associating with their rapist has been addressed several times. Also, to be honest, this is just something you _should_ know by being a functional human being. Of course victims often continue to associate with their rapists. There’s generally a lot more going on in a person’s life than just the fact of the rape itself. I think that generally tends to apply more to date rape type situations rather than stranger rape situations where there’s no ongoing relationship. But that said, I don’t think showing up at a fundraiser counts as “associating with her rapist”. My experience with political fundraisers and people who attend them is that they’re generally less about the candidates themselves than about the intermediate people. Meaning, suppose the governor of Arkansas is holding a fundraiser, most of the people who show up and/or contribute have no connection to him or any realistic prospect of having any connection, and that’s not what they’re looking for. But they know A who knows the governor, or perhaps they know A who knows B who knows the governor, and they’re going to win brownie points with A (who might himself be trying to win brownie points with B, and so on). As a general rule, once you’re at the fundraiser you’ll go shake hands with the politician and perhaps get a picture, if you’re so inclined. But the mere fact of attendence at such a fundraiser is no indication at all of any support for or desire to maintain any sort of connection to the politican. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/219 "2014-11-25T14:39:24Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > To me this is incredibly unfair. > > If right now, five women, that knew where you lived and what you had been doing, were to come forward and say that you did what Cosby did over a period of six months between Jan and June 1995, how many of them could you convincingly refute? > > All? Two? Three? > > What would happen in reality - as soon as you start to “defend yourself” - unless you have a solid alibi for ALL of the cases, you will be judged guilty on the ones you simply don’t have enough information to refute. > > How is that better for you than remaining silent on all the cases? We aren’t discussing a generic “you”. We are discussing Bill Cosby. Generic “you” in six billion examples hasn’t ruffied and raped over a dozen women over the past 40 years. And in fact, generic “you” doesn’t need to defend itself. It is innnocent. Bill Cosby with great probability did commit these acts. He has threatened to sue for libel, and has the resources and motivation to do it. So where is the suit? There won’t be one because it would prove the acts occurred in most instances. Certainly it is possible that one, or maybe two, accusers could get together and concoct a story. That isn’t what we are facing here. It is well over a dozen. Who aren’t connected. The reason Bill Cosby cannot successfully defend himself is because he left way too much evidence and the credibility of Cliff Huxtable is gone. We are left with sexual predator Bill Cosby. The generic “you” is a bogus argument because you have substituted an innocent person, the “you” of which makes us deeply biased in our own favor, for someone who actually has over a dozen accusers. There is only one person who has a dozen accusers, and the reason that is overwhelming is because it is real, not hypothetical. These are named accusers with details. When you ask “you” to defend himself, come up with the names, don’t appeal to their known innocence and self-interest, appeal to the facts. The fact is Bill Cosby has over a dozen accusers and now a fixer coming forward with their names, ready to defend a libel suit. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/220 "2014-11-25T14:43:33Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Cosby has been raked over the coals by anti-racist liberals more than once for his statements, so I don’t think it’s a hard sell that [he’s perceived as conservative](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/05/-this-is-how-we-lost-to-the-white-man/306774/). Perhaps in the sense of the “[liberal/conservative] on one thing, [liberal/conservative] on everything, and there is ONE TRUE WAY of being one” expectation that the idelogical hardliners tend to throw at us. In Cosby’s case the discomfort of the racial-issues activists over his “responsibility” platform didn’t trouble me as much as did the overenthusiastic embrace from the right-wingers rallying to feel exonerated by a “respected black voice”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=12)