# Enough from the defenders of rapists already **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392 "2014-11-23T05:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/281 "2014-12-01T14:40:14Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Why is it, then, that women seem to be behaving with more abandon than ever? > > \< snip \> > > yes, I know I will be clobbered, but I have to tell it like it is. Jesus. It’s not taking longer than we thought. It’s just never fucking going to happen. And I’d like to propose a new function for the board… whenever you come across idiots such as this who, amazingly, not only don’t understand the concept of rape in general, but pretty much seem to condone it on the condition that men just can’t seem to control themselves, allows you to put some sort of note that only you can see that attaches its self to their profile. That way, when you start reading total bullshit like this, you can pull it up, go, “Yep, another misogynistic dipshit.” and disengage. It’s such a disservice to the Dope populace to have them forge into battle with unarmed persons who’d just waste our time. This way, we’d know who to avoid without cluttering up the old ignore list. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/282 "2014-12-01T14:48:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Jesus Christ. :smack: You being (apparently? as you seem to be emphasizing?) an old man–an elder, I suppose, is what you would like to be called–does not excuse this shit. What you’re saying is evil. You are being an evil human being right now. You need to stop. You are the bad guy, and you need to stop. > > Look, let’s accept for the sake of argument that “in your day” going into the same dorm room together was an unmistakable, absolutely unambiguous statement that you intend to have sex with each other. > > That has absolutely no implication for the question of who raped whom in your scenario. All it does is add one act of assent at the very beginning. After giving that assent, she _withdrew it_. Once she’d withdrawn it, she was not consenting. Hence, when he had sex with her, he raped her. > > She did nothing to him without his consent. Hence, she did not rape him. Sorry, real world here…You really will not change my mind. If a woman behaves provocatively, a man has reason to believe she might be receptive to having sex with him. If the provocative behavior runs all the way to laying naked on your bed with your hands and mouths all over one another, a woman, even one who yells ‘no’, might be the victim of ‘rape’, but she cannot, in a million years, claim she had no responsibility for her situation. Why do so many women have so much trouble understanding that if they don’t want to have sex, they shouldn’t act like they do want to have sex? I think men, today, are even less likely to ‘stop’ when told ‘no’ than their grandfathers. Sex is all around them. Everyone else is doing it. I did it ten times last month!..How can she say ‘no’ at this point? My generation was a lot less likely to have any significant number of partners than today’s. In other words, I have never raped, and would never rape, but you think me a horrible person who should never be allowed anywhere a woman? Because, I guess, I can understand that when a woman acts like she wants to have sex in today’s society, she wants to have sex. she is acting like a normal woman of the 21st century, proud of her sexuality and willing to experiment, not willing to be confined by any previous rules or expectations…and in such control of her sex life that she can literally say ‘no’ at the last second and expect to be believed when she claims, ‘rape’. The whole business of never blaming a woman for the outcome, of saying that the man is always to blame, doesn’t do women any favors. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/283 "2014-12-01T14:49:18Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > I don’t claim that a man who goes ‘too far’ is blameless. Far from it. But a woman who puts herself in that situation willingly for the sake of some sexual equality principle, is almost as much to blame for the fact that she had sex she may not have expected. No she’s not. Again, sex doesn’t just happen – people make the choice. Bad people can’t control themselves (or just don’t care) and commit rape. > [@](#): > > I some situations, I can’t call it rape, when intercourse results from an extremely intimate sexually charged moment. Why do you keep saying “intercourse results” as if this is some force of nature that can’t be controlled? It’s not – it’s a choice. All rapes are choices by the rapist. > [@](#): > > Sorry about that. You don’t like it? Keep your daughter away from my grandson, tell her not to invite a guy to her dorm room, tell her not to drink too much, take any pills, let herself get separated from friends she trusts…tell her to take precautions, because if she doesn’t, she’s likely to have a sexual encounter she didn’t ask for…or did she? I know, I know, I’m horrible, but I’m really telling it like it is. Really. You’re not telling it like it is. You’re giving men a pass for behavior that you condemn for women. You’re saying that women shouldn’t ever drink something she hasn’t poured herself, they shouldn’t ever trust that a man might be able to control himself, that they shouldn’t ever spend time alone with a man, they shouldn’t ever be alone… these are not appropriate “precautions” – this is Ministry to Prevent Vice and Promote Virtue stuff. All rapes are decisions made by the rapists. That’s what needs to be taught to everyone. Not behavior police – not restrictions on clothing, etc. > [@](#): > > Would I? No way, I’m a gentleman. But I wouldn’t trust any other man in the world with my granddaughter under those dorm room circumstances, not to think he was welcome to have sex with her. If you think society doesn’t make decisions about guilt or innocence along the same lines as I describe, I think you are deluded on that point. Society obviously does make decisions like this, and that’s a major thing that’s fucked up about society. Society often blames a woman for her own rape. “You shouldn’t have accepted that drink!” – “you shouldn’t have worn that outfit!” – “you shouldn’t have been alone with this guy you’d gone out with for a few weeks!”. The focus should be on the rapists, in all cases – society should respond “you shouldn’t have made the decision to rape” – “you shouldn’t have made the decision to rape” – “you shouldn’t have made the decision to rape”. You’re a rape apologist, and a rape excuser. You’re not telling things like it is, you’re telling things like you want them to be. Rape is a result of decisions made by the rapist in all cases. Rape (and sex) never just “happen” – humans can control their behavior, even in the heat of the moment. Some choose not to control their behavior – and these are the bad ones. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/284 "2014-12-01T14:59:20Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Sorry, real world here…You really will not change my mind. If a woman behaves provocatively, a man has reason to believe she might be receptive to having sex with him. A man should confirm this before making a decision to have sex with her. If he doesn’t, he might be committing rape. > [@](#): > > If the provocative behavior runs all the way to laying naked on your bed with your hands and mouths all over one another, a woman, even one who yells ‘no’, might be the victim of ‘rape’, but she cannot, in a million years, claim she had no responsibility for her situation. She has no responsibility for the rape. She may not have wanted sex – she may just have wanted to be naked, kiss, and grope. That doesn’t give anyone a license to rape her. > [@](#): > > Why do so many women have so much trouble understanding that if they don’t want to have sex, they shouldn’t act like they do want to have sex? Being affectionate, even including kissing and groping, is not necessarily acting “like they do want to have sex” – it might be just acting like they want to kiss and grope. If the man suspects she wants to have sex, he needs to confirm this suspicion before going forward. > [@](#): > > I think men, today, are even less likely to ‘stop’ when told ‘no’ than their grandfathers. I see no reason why this would be the case. In the past, marital rape was not even a crime – wives could say no, but they had no legal recourse if their husbands raped them. > [@](#): > > Sex is all around them. Sex has always been all around everyone. > [@](#): > > Everyone else is doing it. I did it ten times last month!..How can she say ‘no’ at this point? Because she’s a human being with the right to make decisions about what happens to her body. > [@](#): > > My generation was a lot less likely to have any significant number of partners than today’s. Cite. > [@](#): > > In other words, I have never raped, and would never rape Considering some of the actions you excuse, there’s no way any of us could know that this is the case. > [@](#): > > Because, I guess, I can understand that when a woman acts like she wants to have sex in today’s society, she wants to have sex. I see part of the problem here – you have placed certain behaviors into the category of “wanting to have sex” when they may not be in that category. A woman might kiss a man because she wants to kiss him – not necessarily because she wants to have sex. She might touch him because she wants to touch him. She might want to be touched. None of this necessarily means she wants to have sex. > [@](#): > > she is acting like a normal woman of the 21st century, proud of her sexuality and willing to experiment, not willing to be confined by any previous rules or expectations…and in such control of her sex life that she can literally say ‘no’ at the last second and expect to be believed when she claims, ‘rape’. Yes, all women can say “no” literally at the last second, and if the man goes ahead, then he is raping her. Even when “hot and heavy”, men have control of their actions. Men aren’t animals. Quite excusing them as if they are. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/285 "2014-12-01T15:02:03Z")
the philosophy that a woman should be able, at any point, to control her sexual encounter is not a horrible philosophy. Philosophically, I agree with it. But in the real world, if you don’t want to get hurt, you don’t walk across the Dan Ryan. You take precautions. you plan, you protect yourself. If, after seeing many other pedestrians smashed to a flat slick spot in the express lane, you decide you can make it, you are a damned fool. You don’t stand in the fast lane and, when the semi is approaching, hold up a stop sign. the news is full of examples every day of girls who went out ‘partying’ and who didn’t ever get home. If they have good sense, they will teach men to follow the proper example, and to, themselves, have good sense, not to expect that they will be offered a mouth or an anus or, even, a hand to use to relieve themselves. You modern women do this to yourselves, setting an impossible standard for allowing libertine behavior while expecting that you can do that without any consequences by ‘withdrawing consent’. I’m not talking about 'hey, I’ve decided this isn’t the night, lets button our shirts back up and go back to studying…I’m obviously talking about men and women who jointly, agreeably, went exploring and satisfying each other and who, about to consumate, one or the other changes their mind. What you should really worry about are the predators who carry rolfies or watch for drunk girls to need a ride home. Take precautions, don’t be a victim. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/286 "2014-12-01T15:04:32Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > typical college problem, the hearing where he said, she said…but the fact is, she invited him to her room to ‘study’. Later, some cuddling gets started, and he says, ‘Want to?’…She says, ‘no, not now, not yet.’ He says, ‘well, how about just giving me some head?’ “Well, okay, but that’s all.” Things progress, he begins fondling her in exchange for the sensations she is giving him. suddenly, he’s on top of her, she’s saying, ‘stop…stop it’. But then it is ‘too late’, the deed is done. entirely the fault of the man, right? the reason I use this example is that it is absolutely true to life, that young women like to engage in sex play without vaginal sex, but sometimes, the man gets carried away at a moment when there is no real way for the woman to stop him. Every campus deals with dozens of these situations every year. Dude, I was with you up until this point. Maybe you are right about her intent, initially. Maybe she went out with the intent that “tonight would be the night”. But you know what? People have the right to change their mind. When she gets back to her room, she gets cold feet, and tells the guy “no”. At that point, nothing that she said before matters. Her earlier intent does not matter. She changed her mind, and does not want it, and clearly expresses this. 100% rape. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/287 "2014-12-01T15:11:42Z")
I wish you well in your campaign. Truly, if you could change human nature so much as to reach the points of behavior you want, it would be a great moment for women. I just guess it won’t happen, no matter how hard you stomp your feet and wave your arms. If a woman wants to completely control her sexual experience, getting naked and drunk and groping and etc. is one sure way to reach the point where she has no control of what does go down. I just urge women (men, too) to be aware that caution in matters sexual is a virtue. thinking you can do whatever pleases you and your partner and then it is easy to stop just short of vaginal intercourse, well, it is a foolish attitude. Probably not one that will ruin your life, if you are smart, but one that you may regret for any number of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/288 "2014-12-01T15:11:49Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > the philosophy that a woman should be able, at any point, to control her sexual encounter is not a horrible philosophy. Philosophically, I agree with it. > > But in the real world, if you don’t want to get hurt, you don’t walk across the Dan Ryan. You take precautions. you plan, you protect yourself. If, after seeing many other pedestrians smashed to a flat slick spot in the express lane, you decide you can make it, you are a damned fool. Taking precautions is fine. But saying women shouldn’t drink or accept drinks, or they shouldn’t wear certain clothes, or shouldn’t be alone with someone, etc., doesn’t fall under the category of reasonable precautions. Further, harping on the precautions both implies that the rapists are less responsible as well as ignoring the much, much greater problem – that some men feel that it’s okay to rape in some situations. For example – some men think that if they get a girl in their bedroom, that’s the same as consent – that’s a much, much greater problem with regards to rape then women getting drunk. > [@](#): > > the news is full of examples every day of girls who went out ‘partying’ and who didn’t ever get home. And in many, probably most of these circumstances, the girls didn’t do anything that 99% of other women haven’t done at some point in their life. > [@](#): > > If they have good sense, they will teach men to follow the proper example, and to, themselves, have good sense, not to expect that they will be offered a mouth or an anus or, even, a hand to use to relieve themselves. No idea what you’re saying here. > [@](#): > > You modern women do this to yourselves, setting an impossible standard for allowing libertine behavior while expecting that you can do that without any consequences by ‘withdrawing consent’. How is this standard impossible? I’m a straight (married) man, and it’s not hard to obey women when they make a statement on whether or not to proceed in an action that involves their bodies. It’s a very easy standard to reach – don’t take any actions involving someone else’s body unless you’re sure that they’ve made the decision that this action is okay. > [@](#): > > I’m not talking about 'hey, I’ve decided this isn’t the night, lets button our shirts back up and go back to studying…I’m obviously talking about men and women who jointly, agreeably, went exploring and satisfying each other and who, about to consumate, one or the other changes their mind. People are allowed to change their mind. Changing one’s mind is fine. If the other person goes ahead anyway, then they’re committing rape. Very simple. If you don’t want to be a rapist, don’t have sex with anyone unless you’re sure they want to have sex. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/289 "2014-12-01T15:14:52Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > I wish you well in your campaign. Truly, if you could change human nature so much as to reach the points of behavior you want, it would be a great moment for women. It’s been happening. Rape is less frequent and more reported. Victims aren’t shamed as much as they used to be – though it is still far too frequent. > [@](#): > > I just guess it won’t happen, no matter how hard you stomp your feet and wave your arms. If a woman wants to completely control her sexual experience, getting naked and drunk and groping and etc. is one sure way to reach the point where she has no control of what does go down. It is happening. It’s slow progress, but it’s definitely progress. More and more men understand that sex requires consent, and sex without consent is rape. Fewer and fewer men think it’s okay to have sex with a woman simply because she chose to be alone with you, or drink with you, or kiss and touch you, without actual consent for sex. The dinosaurs are dying, and losing. Your side is losing. My side is winning. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/290 "2014-12-01T15:18:13Z")
Is a gay man allowed to treat you this way based on your attire, if you’re with your friends, been drinking, out late, etc? “It’ll be over before you know it!”, and “you were in his room!”, “sorry about that!”, is gonna work for you? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/291 "2014-12-01T15:20:19Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > Dude, I was with you up until this point. Maybe you are right about her intent, initially. Maybe she went out with the intent that “tonight would be the night”. But you know what? People have the right to change their mind. When she gets back to her room, she gets cold feet, and tells the guy “no”. At that point, nothing that she said before matters. Her earlier intent does not matter. She changed her mind, and does not want it, and clearly expresses this. 100% rape. I’m not talking about saying no ‘when she gets back to her room’. Any man who presses his suit when told to leave after a kiss or two, even a little fondling…I agree with you…but a guy who has no reason to expect the encounter will end in any other way except with orgasmic sex, suddenly at the last minute being told to ‘get off, I don’t want this.’ that’s what I’m talking about. And I’m not saying that if a man goes ahead anyway that it isn’t rape. Are you listening? I’m saying that a woman has no right to put blame for the sex completely on the man. She was a willing accomplice, right up to the point where she tried to yank the fuse out of the dynamite… you want to take it further? You want to say that the guy is pumping away, just about to come and she says, “no, don’t come!” that she is blameless, that he, in your universe, raped her? Where in the hell do you draw the line? I’d draw it somewhere around the point where the panties come off and the legs start to open. Say ‘no’ then? okay. I get it. Wait until the penetration is imminent or has already happened? Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/292 "2014-12-01T15:29:37Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > I’m not talking about saying no ‘when she gets back to her room’. Any man who presses his suit when told to leave after a kiss or two, even a little fondling…I agree with you…but a guy who has no reason to expect the encounter will end in any other way except with orgasmic sex, suddenly at the last minute being told to ‘get off, I don’t want this.’ that’s what I’m talking about. What you’re talking about is still rape – the only time a guy would have “no reason to expect the encounter will end in any other way except with orgasmic sex” are times in which the woman has explicitly said that she plans to have orgasmic sex. In all other cases, a man does not have this expectation reasonably, and if he wants to have sex, he must confirm that she has consented. > [@](#): > > And I’m not saying that if a man goes ahead anyway that it isn’t rape. Are you listening? I’m saying that a woman has no right to put blame for the sex completely on the man. She was a willing accomplice, right up to the point where she tried to yank the fuse out of the dynamite… Men aren’t dynamite. Do you really think men are so morally weak that they are unable to make a decision to not have sex? I certainly don’t – I know that I’m not that weak at all. > [@](#): > > Wait until the penetration is imminent or has already happened? Good luck. Penetration is never “imminent”. And once it’s happened, women can still say “stop, that’s enough”. They can still choose to not continue. If the man doesn’t comply, he is committing rape. If something is inside your body, you can choose to expel it. If it’s another person, and they refuse to get out, they are raping/assaulting you. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/293 "2014-12-01T15:54:30Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > To me, the very definition of a ‘gentleman’ is one who, in the circumstances when a woman is behaving with abandon after drinking too much or taking drugs, makes sure the woman gets home and safely into her own bed by herself. There are quite a few ‘gentlemen’, but not one of them that I know thinks that if a woman felt herself a rape victim the next day after getting blitzed that she should not shoulder a fair portion of the blame. So, a woman who gets drunk, etc., in the presence of a gentleman, and gets taken home safely… but if _the man_ she’s with turns out to not be a gentleman, and does rape her, a “gentleman” now holds _her_ responsible?! What? No, of course an actual gentleman respects women’s agency and consent, in all cases. He does not deny responsibility for his own actions, nor excuse the misdeeds of other men. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/294 "2014-12-01T16:03:01Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Is a gay man allowed to treat you this way based on your attire, if you’re with your friends, been drinking, out late, etc? “It’ll be over before you know it!”, and “you were in his room!”, “sorry about that!”, is gonna work for you? Exactly. Anything anyone is invested in, they should be able to force the issue because… reasons? That salesman really wanted you to buy that car, and gosh dang it, you had him draw up the paperwork, get everything approved through his manager, got the financing approved from your bank, and hell, even test drove it overnight, and _now_ you want to back out? No siree. You gotta go through with that purchase, no matter what your rights are or what the law says. Some moron on the Internet says so. Oh wait, it’s just about rape and awful women wiles and poor helpless Joes who just canNOT control themselves. Won’t anyone think of them? > [@crucible](#): > > you want to take it further? You want to say that the guy is pumping away, just about to come and she says, “no, don’t come!” that she is blameless, that he, in your universe, raped her? Where in the hell do you draw the line? I’d draw it somewhere around the point where the panties come off and the legs start to open. Say ‘no’ then? okay. I get it. Wait until the penetration is imminent or has already happened? Good luck. Everyone should have their “no” respected, no matter when it comes. Are you really saying your stupid blue balls can’t deal with one time being put on the back burner when someone changes their mind? I swear to God, I’d be afraid to ever walk out in public if I had so little self-control as you rapists purport men do. Fortunately, most men aren’t like you and have absolutely no problem understanding that it’s completely reprehensible to do anything sexual against someone’s will. Perhaps they just don’t get the thrill of forcing sex unto people. You and your ilk make me feel like I need to have a scalding hot bath after reading what you spew. And brain bleach. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/295 "2014-12-01T18:00:59Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Exactly. Anything anyone is invested in, they should be able to force the issue because… reasons? That salesman really wanted you to buy that car, and gosh dang it, you had him draw up the paperwork, get everything approved through his manager, got the financing approved from your bank, and hell, even test drove it overnight, and _now_ you want to back out? No siree. You gotta go through with that purchase, no matter what your rights are or what the law says. Some moron on the Internet says so. Oh wait, it’s just about rape and awful women wiles and poor helpless Joes who just canNOT control themselves. Won’t anyone think of them? > > Everyone should have their “no” respected, no matter when it comes. Are you really saying your stupid blue balls can’t deal with one time being put on the back burner when someone changes their mind? I swear to God, I’d be afraid to ever walk out in public if I had so little self-control as you rapists purport men do. Fortunately, most men aren’t like you and have absolutely no problem understanding that it’s completely reprehensible to do anything sexual against someone’s will. Perhaps they just don’t get the thrill of forcing sex unto people. > > You and your ilk make me feel like I need to have a scalding hot bath after reading what you spew. And brain bleach. Perhaps that is because the truth, the facts about what is happening rather than what you want to happen…is a harsh teacher. Nothing I have written excuses a man for his part in a sexual interaction that doesn’t stop when the woman says, ‘stop’. I will not, though, excuse women’s part in the leadup to the sexual interaction. I suppose it is possible to have two standards – one, the hope for how your evening will go when you get gussied up, go to the party, have several uninhibiting beverages or pills, accept a ‘ride home’, get into your bedroom, take off your clothes, lay down beside, kiss, fondle, etc…and when you say ‘no’, the gentleman puts on his clothes, thanks you for a wonderful evening, and quietly leaves after walking your dog for you… the other, for the sense that no matter what happens, no matter how provocatively you behave, how far you let things go…it is completely, utterly, the man’s fault if you have sex that, close to consumation, you say you don’t want. You are free of responsibility, because your female friends told you that no matter how you act, whatever happens is the fault of the man… the vast majority of women and men just don’t think that way. There is a group, apparently, who think that they can change human nature and behavior by claiming that a woman bears no responsibility for anything a man does to her. the vast majority of women, even if struck a blow, will examine their own actions to see if they might have been partly at fault. hard to imagine why, but most women, according to the ladies’ talk shows, are prone to questioning their own culpability. Sexual politics is different in all ways from physical abuse between partners. Well, not completely different, but there are significant differences… picture circumstances that lead up to a man and woman exchanging blows, versus exchanging body fluids…not the same thing at all. Listen, I don’t want men to rape, I don’t excuse them for it…I do think some women are trying very hard to play the ‘woman’ card regards sex. Sex only happens when and if a woman wants it…okay, we’ve pretty much established that over the last century…A woman behaving in certain ways is more likely to be raped than another woman, behaving cautiously. Everyone knows that, but some women want to say they can do anything they want without blame for the consequences. How about the woman who flirts with two different men? they fight, one gets killed…the woman is, of course, purely blameless. It is her right to lead on as many men at a time as she pleases…after all, she is a woman! ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/296 "2014-12-01T18:02:03Z")
and that is that. I know your kind, you know mine. No contact further, please. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/297 "2014-12-01T18:16:30Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Perhaps that is because the truth, the facts about what is happening rather than what you want to happen…is a harsh teacher. What you are saying is not the truth. > [@](#): > > Nothing I have written excuses a man for his part in a sexual interaction that doesn’t stop when the woman says, ‘stop’. Yes it does – it shifts at least part of the blame to the woman, at least for some rapes. > [@](#): > > I will not, though, excuse women’s part in the leadup to the sexual interaction. I suppose it is possible to have two standards – one, the hope for how your evening will go when you get gussied up, go to the party, have several uninhibiting beverages or pills, accept a ‘ride home’, get into your bedroom, take off your clothes, lay down beside, kiss, fondle, etc…and when you say ‘no’, the gentleman puts on his clothes, thanks you for a wonderful evening, and quietly leaves after walking your dog for you… the other, for the sense that no matter what happens, no matter how provocatively you behave, how far you let things go…it is completely, utterly, the man’s fault if you have sex that, close to consumation, you say you don’t want. You are free of responsibility, because your female friends told you that no matter how you act, whatever happens is the fault of the man… Every rape victim in human history is free of responsibility for their own rape. Are you seriously suggesting that _any_ rape victims are partially to blame for being raped? You keep talking about “excusing the woman’s part” – what’s to excuse? What is wrong with dressing as one wants to dress? Drinking alcohol? Spending time with someone? Kissing, touching, etc.? Saying “no” to sex? Which of these actions are wrong? Which of these actions are morally bad? There’s nothing to excuse. More and more men recognize that none of these behaviors give them license to rape. There are still plenty of dinosaurs like yourself that think it makes it okay to blame women, but your numbers are fewer and fewer. > [@](#): > > the vast majority of women and men just don’t think that way. There is a group, apparently, who think that they can change human nature and behavior by claiming that a woman bears no responsibility for anything a man does to her. Who’s changing “human nature”? Behavior is changing, and it changes all the time. This is good. I don’t see how rape is any more part of “human nature” than slavery was. My human nature doesn’t compel me to rape. Neither do most men’s human nature. It’s not hard to not rape. It’s a very easy bar to clear – a very easy thing to ask… don’t have sex with anyone unless you’re sure they’ve made the decision to have sex with you. If you’re not sure, _you need to find out before you have sex_. What’s unreasonable about that? > [@](#): > > the vast majority of women, even if struck a blow, will examine their own actions to see if they might have been partly at fault. hard to imagine why, but most women, according to the ladies’ talk shows, are prone to questioning their own culpability. This is a bad thing, has changed, and continues to change. More and more women and men recognize that domestic abuse is _never justified_, and the abuser is _always at fault_. > [@](#): > > Listen, I don’t want men to rape, I don’t excuse them for it…I do think some women are trying very hard to play the ‘woman’ card regards sex. I think they’re playing the “human” card – as in “treat me like a human, and don’t have sex with me unless you’re sure that I want to have sex”. > [@](#): > > A woman behaving in certain ways is more likely to be raped than another woman, behaving cautiously. Cite? > [@](#): > > Everyone knows that, but some women want to say they can do anything they want without blame for the consequences. No, not everyone knows that. If you think it’s a fact, you’ll need to back it up. > [@](#): > > How about the woman who flirts with two different men? they fight, one gets killed…the woman is, of course, purely blameless. It is her right to lead on as many men at a time as she pleases…after all, she is a woman! Are you fucking kidding me? By flirting she is responsible for fucking _murder_? God what a load of bullshit. Of course it’s her right to flirt with whomever she chooses! And, of course, it’s the right of her significant other to end the relationship if he feels he is not being treated well. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/298 "2014-12-01T18:38:27Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > When I was in college, just after the last covered wagon left for Oregon . . . and how many years had women been that women were allowed to vote? Just because back in your day laws and polite society generally didn’t give two shits about women beyond their benefit to their families and to men doesn’t mean that that was the right way to be. > [@crucible](#): > > you want to take it further? You want to say that the guy is pumping away, just about to come and she says, “no, don’t come!” that she is blameless, that he, in your universe, raped her? Where in the hell do you draw the line? I’d draw it somewhere around the point where the panties come off and the legs start to open. Say ‘no’ then? okay. I get it. Wait until the penetration is imminent or has already happened? Good luck. Sure, there’s a line; it’s drawn right around the few seconds it takes for a person to register the request of a sexual partner and comply. Making the choice to not comply because you don’t want to makes you a rapist. In the “real world” you talk about, men and women can and do have control of their actions during sex. If you’re fucking your wife, with whom you have regular relations, and she asks you to stop, and you refuse, you’re raping her. Even if you’re only like 10 seconds away from coming and you just wanna finish up. And it’s 100% your fault, even though the slut opened her legs to you. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/299 "2014-12-01T18:56:54Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > whatever happens is the fault of the man… No, _what a man does_ is the responsibility of that man. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/300 "2014-12-01T19:04:31Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Perhaps that is because the truth, the facts about what is happening rather than what you want to happen…is a harsh teacher. > > Nothing I have written excuses a man for his part in a sexual interaction that doesn’t stop when the woman says, ‘stop’. > > I will not, though, excuse women’s part in the leadup to the sexual interaction. I suppose it is possible to have two standards – one, the hope for how your evening will go when you get gussied up, go to the party, have several uninhibiting beverages or pills, accept a ‘ride home’, get into your bedroom, take off your clothes, lay down beside, kiss, fondle, etc…and when you say ‘no’, the gentleman puts on his clothes, thanks you for a wonderful evening, and quietly leaves after walking your dog for you… What a strange remark. Why is this an unrealistic ‘standard’? I’ve been in that situation before (including a few weeks ago) and minus the dog walking, it transpired more or less the way you describe as not being realistic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=16)