# Enough from the defenders of rapists already **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392 "2014-11-23T05:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/341 "2014-12-02T13:35:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Another, more hopeful, explanation is that Americans have actually changed the way they think about sexual assault: Women have been taught to avoid unsafe situations, and both boys and girls have been drilled to understand the rules of consent. > > “They’re far more aware that ‘no’ means no,” Ah, so the Greatest Generation is also the Rapist Generation. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/342 "2014-12-02T13:36:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s just the misogynist in you. Some women call certain types of underwear “pajamas”, or she just had her suitcase with her at the time. Accepting wine doesn’t entitle one to be raped. Yeah, just more rape-excusing and apologizing. It’s true. Whenever I go to a job interview I always take my pajamas with me and drink until I pass out. Shame on him who thinks ill of it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/343 "2014-12-02T14:21:36Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Is that truly the best you’ve got? I’m not sure that “best” is quite the right term - the exchange didn’t seem to call for more than that. I suppose there might be some amusement wrung out of actually expressing sentiments closer to what you’ve attributed to me, in seeing whether you could then dial it up yet another notch or whether your simple brain only has OFF and MAX settings. But not enough, and in any event I like to stick to my actual positions. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/344 "2014-12-02T14:29:44Z")
Apparently so. All right, I’m done playing with you, you pompous, misogynistic, self-important windbag. I’m sure the rest of the Dope will continue to roll their eyes at your inane “contributions” and you’ll keep believing your masturbatory fantasies that you’re actually accomplishing something. And as I’ve said to others of your kind, keep your paper towel tube handy. I’m sure in y’all’s circle jerk that it’ll be needed. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/345 "2014-12-02T14:32:24Z")
Hmm … still looks like the same setting … ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/346 "2014-12-02T14:34:48Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > And when all it takes is a victim attitude and an accusation, Hitler and the terrorists have already won. > > Perhaps what this country needs isn’t cops with vest cameras. What we need is vagina cameras. Mandatory. And who is going to watch all of those vagcams **levdrakon**? Me? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/347 "2014-12-02T14:36:31Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > And who is going to watch all of those vagcams **levdrakon**? Me? No, I think he should. Since there’s such concern about how precious they are, who else would be a better judge? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/348 "2014-12-02T16:35:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Somehow I have no difficulty at all in believing men find it easy to control themselves sexually where you’re concerned. 😃 ‘‘Men can control their behavior; for example, my friends aren’t rapists’’ ‘‘Yeah that’s probably cause you’re ugly’’ WTF? In what universe is that an appropriate response? [QUOTE=Fotheringay-Phipps] 2. The trauma of rape is partially sociological and derived in part from society’s attitudes about sex and bodily autonomy. The implication of which that a victim of rape is even more victimized if she’s been told by society to regard what happened to her as a horrible violation of her person and honor and so on, versus if society treats it as a more minor sin. In this sense, efforts to raise awareness of rape - while admirable on the whole - also have the perverse effect of heightening the impact on the victims. And what’s relevant here is that as society becomes less tolerant of certain types of rape and sexual assault, women who suffered these at a more tolerant time will find themselves feeling more victimized in reliving the experience now than they did at the time. (This accounts to some extent for the women coming forth with stories now who maintained relationships with Cosby after the actual incidents.) [/QUOTE] I really want to disagree with this, but based on what I know about trauma psychology, I can’t. if you look at mass-trauma interventions like debriefing, there is evidence that they increase the likelihood of a victim developing PTSD as a result of a traumatic experience. I believe the prevailing theory on this is that the stories of the victims sort of merge together into one collectively experienced trauma. There were a lot of articles about this following 9-11, which is about as collective as traumas get, considering the media coverage they received. It cuts both ways, though. If someone experiences something that they found distressing, and they receive little or no social support or validation at the time of that distressing event, the impact of the trauma is magnified. In fact, lack of social support at the time of a traumatic event is one of the single biggest predictors of PTSD. The relative trauma of an experience is significantly influenced by the social context in which it occurs. So if we’re going to draw any broad generalizations, I don’t think it should be, ‘‘things would be better for rape victims if rape were viewed as a lesser crime.’’ I think it would be more like, ‘‘Each individual rape victim’s experience should be taken at face value in terms of relative harm.’’ If someone had an experience and doesn’t think it’s a big deal, it’s not good to assume they are in denial. Conversely, if someone has an experience you don’t personally think is that bad, take them at their word when they say they are messed up about it. I also think there’s a feminist angle to be considered on this notion of feminine ‘‘honor’’ being stolen, so I’ll throw in my favorite feminist essay [The Collapsible Woman](2. The trauma of rape is partially sociological and derived in part from society’s attitudes about sex and bodily autonomy. The implication of which that a victim of rape is even more victimized if she’s been told by society to regard what happened to her as a horrible violation of her person and honor and so on, versus if society treats it as a more minor sin. In this sense, efforts to raise awareness of rape - while admirable on the whole - also have the perverse effect of heightening the impact on the victims. And what’s relevant here is that as society becomes less tolerant of certain types of rape and sexual assault, women who suffered these at a more tolerant time will find themselves feeling more victimized in reliving the experience now than they did at the time. (This accounts to some extent for the women coming forth with stories now who maintained relationships with Cosby after the actual incidents.)). I think every paragraph is quotable gold. Anyhow, I pick this one. > [@](#): > > her observation that debate about abuse can be killed simply by saying, “You don’t understand,” is astute and needs to be addressed. > > Underlying that defensive phrase is the implication that a woman who has been raped or molested is too weak to hear an opposing view. If grilling a traumatized woman about her particular methods of coping is tactless and probably cruel, the assumption that we are incapable of handling debate on a broader level is even worse—it’s demeaning. Any dialogue that automatically squelches dissent on the grounds that it’s just too painful to continue isn’t a dialogue, but rather a manipulation of the very mode of debate. **We desperately need to broaden the range of responses considered healthy for survivors of abuse. Right now, we have a model of collapse and we have its shadow sister, repression. If you’re not collapsed, you’re repressed. Period.** Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/349 "2014-12-02T16:48:04Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > The discussion about rape and the social implications of rape isn’t about Bill Cosby. He’s just being used as the icon and lightning rod for the discussion. Yes. Who do you think does not know this? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/350 "2014-12-02T17:01:06Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > I’m not pretending to solve the problem, both in a static and affirmative sense. > Wow, that was difficult to parse. > > It was like you’re asking how I see from my eyeball and how that gets translated to concepts. > > I’m still not sure what you’re trying to get at. But in the post you’re quoting, I was discussing **Spice Weasel** ’s question with her. Her question had some assumptions embedded in the question that I gave my opinion on before I got to her question. In the declarative parts, I was giving my opinion. In the question parts, I was asking for hers. So pretty much, message board discussion. Just chattin? Just askin questions? I’ll teach you another term: Concern troll. > [@](#): > > Interesting that you say that no one would believe what they read in the made-up registry. If so, that might be even more reason to set it up. A couple people in this thread claim that telling their stories IS the justice. Adding the name of the accused would just be more justice, right? (I personally don’t think it would be fair for the accused.) Do you mean adding the name of the accuser? > [@](#): > > But then you also say that if people don’t believe the accusers of Bill Cosby, they’re bad people. It couldn’t just be that they don’t believe the weight of the evidence or they distrust the system through which it’s told or that they want to see both sides of a story before they judge it. If they don’t believe the weight of the evidence, then they are engaging in mental activities somewhere in the range between motivated rationalizing and outright apologetics, both of which would not count positively towards their moral character. The argument “I want to see both sides of the story before I judge it,” when applied to this particular case, has been demonstrated in this thread and countless other conversations to be specious. Again–motivated reasoning or outright apologetics, which does not count positively towards a person’s moral character. If they distrust the system through which it’s told, they’re just being ignorant which I suppose does not make them bad people. But this particular level and type of ignorance certainly tends to suggest a degree of laziness and lack of care which, again, doesn’t tend to count positively towards a person’s moral character. > [@](#): > > I’ll add one more component to the thought experiment to overcome your objection to the vetting. If there were more than x number of accusations, then before the national publication printed it, the women would be required to send a copy of a current photo ID and birth certificate copy to prove they were actual women of a certain age. Does that overcome your objection? How about we make the analogy really work by importing the whole news reporting apparatus, the process of education into a journalism degree, the effort and risk involved in revealing things to journalists, law enforcement people, and on personal online accounts, and all the other myriad of messy, squishy, difficult and _crucial_ aspects at play in this case. I work in philosophy. I live and breathe simplified analogies for the purpose of testing out manners of reasoning. It’s a tool which works better in some cases than in others. This here is not one of those cases. The reality is messy, and abstracting away from it in ways you can put in a paragraph or two is always going to leave out crucial aspects of the situation. This is a case where we can’t escape from engagement with the reality we’re trying to think about. > [@](#): > > Your next objection is odd. You’re saying that the fact that since the accusers in the Bill Cosby case didn’t have a streamlined reporting system, they’re more credible? Wouldn’t you want it to be easier for women to come forward with their stories and not make it messy and difficult for them to do so? I didn’t say anything about what I would want, I made a statement concerning facts about, in so many words, signal, noise and confidence levels. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/351 "2014-12-02T17:15:17Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > The relative trauma of an experience is significantly influenced by the social context in which it occurs. So if we’re going to draw any broad generalizations, I don’t think it should be, ‘‘things would be better for rape victims if rape were viewed as a lesser crime.’’ I think it would be more like, ‘‘Each individual rape victim’s experience should be taken at face value in terms of relative harm.’’ If someone had an experience and doesn’t think it’s a big deal, it’s not good to assume they are in denial. Conversely, if someone has an experience you don’t personally think is that bad, take them at their word when they say they are messed up about it. FWIW, I think it’s technically true that rape victims would suffer less trauma if rape were viewed as a lesser crime. But there would also be many more rapes, so that’s not much of a practical consideration. The main context of my remarks was in explaining why many victims appeared to have different attitudes towards BC closer to the time that the incidents happened than they do now. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/352 "2014-12-02T17:24:46Z")
Can I just say, once again, how much I love the ignore function? Ever since I put my first lying asshole on there, Strangling Tubist, lo these many years ago, I’ve never, ever had to read one more dribble of his idiotic blather. Now I’ve been able to add a new slew of fucktards to the list and I’m finding that my Doping experience continues to be much improved. I highly recommend it because there’s never going to be anything worth reading, unless you just like to point, laugh and share with friends on facebook to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/353 "2014-12-02T17:25:38Z")
I uh… I think you’re not supposed to talk about that. I might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/354 "2014-12-02T17:30:32Z")
I believe it’s OK under the rules (at least in the Pit). But if you talk too much about how you’re ignoring people, you’re not really ignoring them. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/355 "2014-12-02T17:37:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > FWIW, I think it’s technically true that rape victims would suffer less trauma if rape were viewed as a lesser crime. But there would also be many more rapes, so that’s not much of a practical consideration. So you would agree that increasing awareness and condemnation of “nonviolent” acquaintance rape is a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/356 "2014-12-02T17:46:03Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I uh… I think you’re not supposed to talk about that. I might be wrong. You can. In the pit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/357 "2014-12-02T18:05:24Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Apparently so. All right, I’m done playing with you, you pompous, misogynistic, self-important windbag. I’m sure the rest of the Dope will continue to roll their eyes at your inane “contributions” and you’ll keep believing your masturbatory fantasies that you’re actually accomplishing something. And as I’ve said to others of your kind, keep your paper towel tube handy. I’m sure in y’all’s circle jerk that it’ll be needed. No, no, it’s just that you aren’t _attractive_ enough to be raped! I know it’s the pit and all but this board has really been making me sick at heart. It’s not the specifics of the Cosby case but rather the underlying attitudes towards women that does it. I don’t know any men like this either–harhar I must be a withered old bat–and I’m wondering why I let such sad, hateful, and profoundly idiotic people into my life via computer screen. Easy enough to fix. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/358 "2014-12-02T18:08:49Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So you would agree that increasing awareness and condemnation of “nonviolent” acquaintance rape is a good thing? I should probably add for the sake of clarity that I find the idea that acquaintance rape is ‘‘less bad’’ than other kinds of rape to be problematic. It flies in the face of my understanding of clinical research on this subject. Again, every rape happens in an individual context featuring a number of different factors. If we can try to operationally define the badness of a given criminal act, I’d say ‘‘likelihood of developing PTSD’’ is a good rule of thumb. Some factors that may contribute to a traumatic event resulting in PTSD: 1. prior trauma history (see: rates of PTSD for combat veterans are much higher among those with an abuse history.) 2. existence of other stressors at the time of the event 3. social support (or lack of) 4. thought patterns on the part of the victim in the immediate aftermath of the trauma (‘‘I deserved this’’ ‘‘this is my fault’’ ‘‘I could have prevented this’’) etc. and whether or not those patterns are reinforced by society/social network. This may seem paradoxical to some posters in this thread, but when victims assume responsibility for what happened to them, it usually compounds the trauma. 5. gender (women tend to have significantly higher rates of PTSD than men) 6. nature of trauma - the rates of PTSD among rape victims, male or female, are [significantly higher](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK56506/) than for other kinds of trauma. Make no mistake, there is something special about rape that makes it particularly bad. This is in part why it is used so effectively as a tool of war. To be honest, actual ‘‘severity of the crime’’ however we define severity, is pretty low in effect size. Whether someone is raped in the heat of the moment when she just wanted to give someone a hand job, or raped on the street at knifepoint, all of the factors listed above are going to take precedence over our gut instinct as a society about how bad a crime is. In fact, I could totally see it being worse for the hand job woman, because folks have no problem telling her that she bears at least part of the responsibility for what happened, whereas people are less inclined to blame a victim if she is raped at knifepoint (but of course those women get blamed too because we live in a magical society where people bend over backward to justify rape.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/359 "2014-12-02T18:23:54Z")
[QUOTE=Emiliana] I know it’s the pit and all but this board has really been making me sick at heart. It’s not the specifics of the Cosby case but rather the underlying attitudes towards women that does it. I don’t know any men like this either–harhar I must be a withered old bat–and I’m wondering why I let such sad, hateful, and profoundly idiotic people into my life via computer screen. Easy enough to fix. [/QUOTE] I honestly think I’ve been around so long I’m mostly inured to it. In fact, relative to the rest of the internet, the Dope is my safe, happy place. Perhaps because it’s all so predictable by now. When I told **Sr. Weasel** about this thread (or rather, collection of threads, as things typically go during Rape Week), he proposed that we adjust the definition of troll. There’s Troll Type 1, where someone deliberately posts to upset people (see: **kstarnes**.) Then there’s Troll Type 2, where someone honestly believes the things that they say but are nonetheless extremely unpleasant to be around. He thinks they should be handled roughly the same, that sincerity is no excuse for spewing garbage. Lots of Type 2 trolling in this thread. (Since we’re on the topic of my husband, he also suggested that our bizarre obsession with penetration as the ultimate harm with regards to sexual assault is really missing the boat when it comes to frank conversations about rape culture and consent. Yes, he’s awesome.) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/360 "2014-12-02T18:24:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So you would agree that increasing awareness and condemnation of “nonviolent” acquaintance rape is a good thing? Yes. Although I would guess that attempts to make a one-size-fits-all “rape is rape” definition is probably unhelpful in this regard. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > To be honest, actual ‘‘severity of the crime’’ however we define severity, is pretty low in effect size. Whether someone is raped in the heat of the moment when she just wanted to give someone a hand job, or raped on the street at knifepoint, all of the factors listed above are going to take precedence over our gut instinct as a society about how bad a crime is. > > In fact, I could totally see it being worse for the hand job woman, because folks have no problem telling her that she bears at least part of the responsibility for what happened, whereas people are less inclined to blame a victim if she is raped at knifepoint (but of course those women get blamed too because we live in a magical society where people bend over backward to justify rape.) So, to give another example, suppose we’re considering marital rape of a woman who lived 300 years ago when (as I understand it) these things were fairly routine. You’re saying you think this woman’s trauma would be (on average) on par with a woman dragged off the street at knifepoint? [As you note, there’s “_something special about rape that makes it particularly bad_”. I would suggest this is societal attitudes about sex in general and rape in particular.] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=19)