# Enough from the defenders of rapists already **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392 "2014-11-23T05:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/381 "2014-12-02T23:35:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Nothing gives you a 100% guarantee that you won’t be a victim of rape, or any other crime. But the notion that these actions don’t change your risk run counter to common sense and prevailing wisdom, and the fact that you “have not seen any evidence” to prove them does not carry any weight. With all due respect, if I am going to significantly change my behavior or lifestyle, I want evidence for making the change, not ‘‘common sense’’ or ''prevailing wisdom." I have good reason for that, because as a general rule, when we research things, we find out that ‘‘prevailing wisdom’’ is usually bullshit. People are horrible at making generalizations based on the things they experience and their ability to perceive reality is almost always distorted. I’m particularly suspicious of ‘‘prevailing wisdom’’ that is conveniently grounded in old-fashioned notions about how women should behave. I’m not sure why the Straight Dope should be about fighting ignorance or following the evidence, except in this case. Anyhow, I did bother to Google, and it [looks like I’m wrong about drinking/parties](http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/campus/Pages/increased-risk.aspx). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/382 "2014-12-02T23:40:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What iiandyiiii seems to be going with is the idea that the woman engaging in risky behaviour is not morally responsible but has responsibility in the sense of someone engaging in any other risky behaviour. That’s a more sustainable approach. This is mostly right, but I’ll try and expand on this – let’s say a woman, on a dare, or on a whim, or for some other reason, takes off all her clothes and runs through the streets at night. If she gets arrested for indecent exposure (or something similar), she is responsible for it – the consequences (which might be a fine and probation, or something like that) are mostly equal and appropriate as compared to the transgression. If she gets raped, she’s not responsible for it – only the rapist is. She might have made a very minor transgression – against society (very minor indeed!) and against wise behavior – but rape compared to running naked is as far from equal and appropriate as nuclear annihilation is for a trade violation. So don’t run naked through the streets at night. If you get arrested for it, that’s on you. But if you get raped, _that’s never on you_ – rape is never a mostly equal and appropriate punishment for any transgression (even another rape, in my view). ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/383 "2014-12-02T23:48:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It looks from your posts as though you may be looking at this thread as a sort-of rape awareness campaign, and interpreting posts in that context. But I’ve been looking at in general as a thread about Cosby defenders and related matters… Defenders of rapists exist and are perpetuated by insufficient awareness about rape, so I don’t see much distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/384 "2014-12-02T23:59:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My take was that it was an oblique comment about one specific member of this board who, that particular commenter believes based on certain posts, probably is a rapist. That’s your take. The fact is, frylock used the plural. That’s not referring to one particular poster. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/385 "2014-12-03T00:12:07Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > No, no, it’s just that you aren’t _attractive_ enough to be raped! > > I know it’s the pit and all but this board has really been making me sick at heart. It’s not the specifics of the Cosby case but rather the underlying attitudes towards women that does it. I don’t know any men like this either–harhar I must be a withered old bat–and I’m wondering why I let such sad, hateful, and profoundly idiotic people into my life via computer screen. Easy enough to fix. True. But the frustrating thing is, back when I was willing to fight the good fight (like some here are doing, but undoubtedly more eloquently), it really did no good on this particular subject. Why? Because it’s been overrun with the lying bullshit we’ve seen over all these threads recently. **sven** addressed it best by her, what, 30 some odd reasons now _why_ these women can’t be trusted. And the same usual suspects with their immoral paper towel tube logic and beliefs suck in antiquity when women knew their place and how to take a punch for their own good, refuse to understand happily. So, now I’ve let my frustrations get out at the people who are lower than shit on my shoe. I mean, someone must’ve made a crack about me (or another Doper slugging it out in here? I dunno…) not being purty enough to have any problems, right? And I could’ve cracked back (if I’d taken them off ignore to read for myself), the low hanging fruit about how they’ve probably never even touched a woman except for good ol’ ma. But if I’m gonna be all shrieky and pissed off, I’d rather not be so stupid as to bitch about anything other than the fucked up shit they post on these boards. They’re reprehensible apologensia is enough without me being lame. I’ll leave that to others. Glad though that you’ve found a better way to deal. I suppose if it gets to the point that I can no longer make heads nor tails of a thread due to all the gaps, I will also be another one who finds somewhere else where such blatant misogyny dressed up as intelligence isn’t allowed to run amok. We’ll see. On that note, I’m out of this thread. It’d be more productive teaching my dog to read. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/386 "2014-12-03T00:15:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s your take. The fact is, frylock used the plural. That’s not referring to one particular poster. You’re right. There’s more than one. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/387 "2014-12-03T00:39:26Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > With all due respect, if I am going to significantly change my behavior or lifestyle, I want evidence for making the change, not ‘‘common sense’’ or ''prevailing wisdom." I have good reason for that, because as a general rule, when we research things, we find out that ‘‘prevailing wisdom’’ is usually bullshit. People are horrible at making generalizations based on the things they experience and their ability to perceive reality is almost always distorted. I’m particularly suspicious of ‘‘prevailing wisdom’’ that is conveniently grounded in old-fashioned notions about how women should behave. I’m not sure why the Straight Dope should be about fighting ignorance or following the evidence, except in this case. Well you can do whatever you want in your personal life and no one can tell you what to do. But if we’re just kicking the subject around in a thread, I don’t think your mere declaration that you haven’t seen any evidence backing up what’s widely thought to be true and backed by common sense carries any weight. Especially as it’s not as if you’re declaring that it’s false either - just that you don’t know of any evidence. Not much in that, IMO. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is mostly right, but I’ll try and expand on this – let’s say a woman, on a dare, or on a whim, or for some other reason, takes off all her clothes and runs through the streets at night. If she gets arrested for indecent exposure (or something similar), she is responsible for it – the consequences (which might be a fine and probation, or something like that) are mostly equal and appropriate as compared to the transgression. If she gets raped, she’s not responsible for it – only the rapist is. She might have made a very minor transgression – against society (very minor indeed!) and against wise behavior – but rape compared to running naked is as far from equal and appropriate as nuclear annihilation is for a trade violation. > > So don’t run naked through the streets at night. If you get arrested for it, that’s on you. But if you get raped, _that’s never on you_ – rape is never a mostly equal and appropriate punishment for any transgression (even another rape, in my view). So it seems like you’re backing off what you wrote earlier. FTR, I was basing my understanding of iiandyiiii’s position on his response to robert\_columbia in post #374. In that post, he repeatedly responded to the various comparisons to other instances of victims being “responsible” by emphasizing the term “moral responsibility”. (None of what he’s writing now has anything to do with that issue.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/388 "2014-12-03T00:42:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So it seems like you’re backing off what you wrote earlier. I don’t think so, but we seem to have a chronic inability to understand each other. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/389 "2014-12-03T00:43:00Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The various people around here who are either directly or indirectly defending Bill Cosby from rape allegations are venal scum. They decline to accept the accusatory statements of women against this serial rapist, on nothing more substantial than that they are women, You’ve got it exactly backwards. I decline to accept the accusatory statements of women against Cosby _because_ they are nothing more substantial than accusatory statements. I don’t think that’s enough. I’m not convinced. This has nothing to do with how much or whether I trust the women involved or what I think of their character. It simply has to do with me needing more concrete evidence to accept such an allegation. It’s really that simple. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Somehow I have no difficulty at all in believing men find it easy to control themselves sexually where you’re concerned. 😃 Shoutouts to **Starving Artist** for making what is quite possibly the most disgusting, hateful post on the entire fucking forum. Congratulations. Collect your trophy, take your bows, and get the fuck out. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/390 "2014-12-03T00:51:14Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Shoutouts to **Starving Artist** for making what is quite possibly the most disgusting, hateful post on the entire fucking forum. This is at least the second comment calling out that remark, and I don’t get it. It seems rather tame to me, both by comparison to the general tenor of posts to the Pit, and by comparison to posts that the target of that insult has made in this very thread (& directed at SA himself). FTR, even it were a harsh remark, FF has no kick coming, because if you’re going to be an over-the-top jerk then some blowback is par for the course. But I don’t see even that. So he said she’s very ugly. _This_ is what breaks the internet? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/391 "2014-12-03T01:06:32Z")
It’s far more than just a mild insult. “You’re too ugly to be raped” is a common way of silencing or marginalizing a woman who is speaking out. It Has historically been a handy weapon in the arsenal of a misogynist ascendancy. A woman’s only value in a male chauvinist society is her beauty (or generally her sexual appeal to men) and if she is ugly she has no value. It’s an exercise of the patriarchal power (by a man or s woman) over a woman with an opinion for nothing more than being a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/392 "2014-12-03T01:08:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is at least the second comment calling out that remark, and I don’t get it. It seems rather tame to me, both by comparison to the general tenor of posts to the Pit, and by comparison to posts that the target of that insult has made in this very thread (& directed at SA himself). > > FTR, even it were a harsh remark, FF has no kick coming, because if you’re going to be an over-the-top jerk then some blowback is par for the course. But I don’t see even that. So he said she’s very ugly. _This_ is what breaks the internet? Yeah, what Ascenray said. It’s not just “you’re ugly”. It’s “the reason men aren’t raping you is because you’re ugly”. That’s so phenomenally fucked-up I don’t even know what to say. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/393 "2014-12-03T01:26:10Z")
Well in that case I get it but just disagree with it. Again, if you can’t deal with being called ugly, with whatever supposed patriarchal connotations are being read into it, then you need to zip it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/394 "2014-12-03T01:29:30Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Speaking of trolling, how is your accusation that people who defend the idea of innocent until proven guilty “probably being rapists” _not_ trolling? Not sure what that has to do with trolling, but in any case you’re definitely misstating what I said. As though it weren’t obvious from just reading what I wrote, in addition you ought to know this is a misstatement from the fact that I subsequently stated that you yourself haven’t given me any particular reason to think you’re a rapist\*, yet you certainly would defend the idea of innocent until proven guilty, correct? \*You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/395 "2014-12-03T01:31:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s your take. The fact is, frylock used the plural. That’s not referring to one particular poster. Indeed, to my recollection I had two specific posters in mind at the time. Some small number more has been added since then. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/396 "2014-12-03T01:41:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well in that case I get it but just disagree with it. > > Again, if you can’t deal with being called ugly, with whatever supposed patriarchal connotations are being read into it, then you need to zip it yourself. What does “I disagree with it” mean here? Specifically, what statement is “it” referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/397 "2014-12-03T01:49:03Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Can I just say, once again, how much I love the ignore function?.. If I had a dollar every time you brought this up, I’d have a couple of hundred dollars by now. So why don’t you just shut the fuck up already about it, we get it you’re on misogyny patrol. Destroying misogyny by ignoring one poster at a time. You go girl. p.s. Don’t forget to add me, but I’m sure you did some time ago. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/398 "2014-12-03T02:30:59Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yeah, what Ascenray said. It’s not just “you’re ugly”. It’s “the reason men aren’t raping you is because you’re ugly”. That’s so phenomenally fucked-up I don’t even know what to say. She’s the one who by your wacko interpretation implied that if not for their ability to control themselves they might be raping her. I merely pointed out that she might be presumptious in thinking control was even necessary. Now, to leave the realm of your idiotic interpretations, I merely took a swipe at her in return for the numerous unprovoked insults she’s been throwing my way. Save your silly histrionics for someone who might swallow them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/399 "2014-12-03T02:39:14Z")
[quote=“Budget\_Player\_Cadet, post:389, topic:705392”] You’ve got it exactly backwards. I decline to accept the accusatory statements of women against Cosby _because_ they are nothing more substantial than accusatory statements. I don’t think that’s enough. I’m not convinced. This has nothing to do with how much or whether I trust the women involved or what I think of their character. It simply has to do with me needing more concrete evidence to accept such an allegation. It’s really that simple. So as long as there is only one eyewitness to a heinous crime, you would not only not convict, but you wouldn’t accept it as an allegation? You would be fine sitting down to dinner with Dr. Cosby and his wife and pretend these allegations have never happened. It wouldn’t rise to your level of concern. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/400 "2014-12-03T02:42:58Z")
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