# Enough from the defenders of rapists already **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392 "2014-11-23T05:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/501 "2014-12-08T09:32:29Z")
Back to the OP, here’s a piece of an [article published on Dec. 6](http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/no-matter-what-jackie-said-we-should-automatically-believe-rape-claims/) in _The Washington Post_. It’s like my thought experiment in that all rape accusers are to be believed without question. The accused are guilty until proven innocent. It’s pretty much the logical extension of believing all rape allegations without question. The author mentions that she is a rape victim who did not know she was raped until much later. She also says that women who are raped can give contradictory facts. > [@](#): > > Even if Jackie fabricated her account, U-Va. should have taken her word for it during the period while they endeavored to prove or disprove the accusation. This is not a legal argument about what standards we should use in the courts; it’s a moral one, about what happens outside the legal system. > The accused would have a rough period. He might be suspended from his job; friends might defriend him on Facebook. In the case of Bill Cosby, we might have to stop watching his shows, consuming his books or buying tickets to his traveling stand-up routine. But false accusations are exceedingly rare, and errors can be undone by an investigation that clears the accused, especially if it is done quickly. It seems to me that it would be pretty hard to defend against allegations that can give contradictory facts and are presumed true until proven false. She also has this line stuck in a paragraph that looks like a complete non-sequitur for me: > [@](#): > > That means we have to admit that a rapist is not literally a monster; he is a person who chose to violate another person’s consent and bodily autonomy. If the rapist is not a monster, why presume him to be guilty? I don’t think it’s the right direction to head. Do you all think that’s the right direction for the future of rape allegations? If this isn’t the right direction to head, how do you reconcile the idea that rape allegations should not be questioned but can be publicized? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/502 "2014-12-08T11:53:40Z")
Again, we are capable of considering individual cases individually. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/503 "2014-12-08T11:57:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Even if Jackie fabricated her account, U-Va. should have taken her word for it during the period while they endeavored to prove or disprove the accusation. This is not a legal argument about what standards we should use in the courts; it’s a moral one, about what happens outside the legal system. > The accused would have a rough period. He might be suspended from his job; friends might defriend him on Facebook. In the case of Bill Cosby, we might have to stop watching his shows, consuming his books or buying tickets to his traveling stand-up routine. But false accusations are exceedingly rare, and errors can be undone by an investigation that clears the accused, especially if it is done quickly. Something tells me that if somebody made an unbelievable accusation of rape against Maxwell, The Washington Post would not suspend her employment. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/504 "2014-12-08T13:53:05Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > It’s pretty much the logical extension of believing all rape allegations without question. Meaning it’s the logical extension of something no one here has suggested. Way to relevance. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/505 "2014-12-08T17:05:04Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Og help me if I ever were to act less lizardy. Okay, it’s probably just me then. Listen, rocks are there for basking on, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/506 "2014-12-10T16:39:11Z")
Between Duke LaCrosse, Tawana Brawley, U. VA., etc. are you seriously asking how anyone could doubt allegations of rape? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/507 "2014-12-11T00:43:42Z")
Just ran across this. [Gay Air Force lieutenant faces sexual assault charges](http://www.washingtonblade.com/2014/12/10/gay-air-force-lieutenant-faces-sexual-assault-charges/) I wonder what people think? The accuser went out drinking, got drunk, made out in the hot tub, and had sex, evidently a threeway with two guys he subsequently accused of having sex with him when he was too drunk to give consent. His accusation against the first person was dismissed so he accused the second guy. Is everyone who doesn’t agree with the accuser in this case, venal scum rape defenders? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/508 "2014-12-13T03:20:56Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Just ran across this. [Gay Air Force lieutenant faces sexual assault charges](http://www.washingtonblade.com/2014/12/10/gay-air-force-lieutenant-faces-sexual-assault-charges/) > > I wonder what people think? The accuser went out drinking, got drunk, made out in the hot tub, and had sex, evidently a threeway with two guys he subsequently accused of having sex with him when he was too drunk to give consent. His accusation against the first person was dismissed so he accused the second guy. > > Is everyone who doesn’t agree with the accuser in this case, venal scum rape defenders? Everyone at this late date who doesn’t agree that the two dozen accusers of Bill Cosby have accurately described his method for committing drugging and raping is quite probably a venal scum rape defender unless they are Bill Cosby’s lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/509 "2014-12-13T09:28:15Z")
The Second Stone, yet again, has proven that he/she is a colossal jerk. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/510 "2014-12-13T19:53:54Z")
Coming from you, that is a compliment. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/511 "2014-12-13T20:03:00Z")
Everyone at this late date who doesn’t realize the accusers can all see what the others have said and match their stories is a dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/512 "2014-12-13T20:05:50Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Everyone at this late date who doesn’t agree that the two dozen accusers of Bill Cosby have accurately described his method for committing drugging and raping is quite probably a venal scum rape defender unless they are Bill Cosby’s lawyer. Meh. I’m not Cosby’s biggest fan. Multiple accusers doesn’t look good. But, lots of people accurately describe getting abducted by aliens and anally probed, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/513 "2014-12-13T21:14:59Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Everyone at this late date who doesn’t agree that the two dozen accusers of Bill Cosby have accurately described his method for committing drugging and raping is quite probably a venal scum rape defender unless they are Bill Cosby’s lawyer. How does the above case remotely resemble the Bill Cosby situation? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/514 "2014-12-13T21:41:49Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > Thank you! I appreciate this more than you know. Over the years, I’ve considered leaving the board over some of your posts. While I appreciate the knowledge and perspective you bring to many discussions, you’ve often posted very personal experiences on sensitive issues of taboo subjects. In several threads, because most people rightly don’t want to hurt your feelings, given how personal the stories are, the conversation becomes very stilted with some people coming to white knight your viewpoint. There were points where I thought you were doing this purposely. If you take a look at your original Pit thread, you dared people to question you, as though you knew that anyone doing that would get slammed. Since I also didn’t want to hurt your feelings, I didn’t speak up about my viewpoint. That got irritating and frustrating. Now that I realize that you understand that your viewpoint is not the only one despite your personal experience, I’ll behave differently. Thank you for revealing that so candidly. It means a lot to me. > > I thought of sending this as a PM, but this isn’t principally about you beyond my gratitude of that post. I’m not wanting you to change anything. It’s more of an explanation of why I won’t be tip-toeing around your feelings about these issues. It’s because you’re not asking me to. The problem with this is that you don’t have to tiptoe around all that much if you don’t have inherently offensive opinions about it to begin with. If you find yourself having to expend a lot of effort to not offend someone, that generally means you need to start questioning your own views. I also hope you see how ridiculous you were being back then. One set of threads by a single poster made you want to leave the entire board. And holding a grudge by the one person who is not in any way responsible. Also, you need to check your concept of “white knighting,” as, if they were white knighting her, then you’ve done a ton of white knighting, including in this thread. White knighting cannot just mean defending someone against someone else who is perceived as being mean to them. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/515 "2014-12-13T21:55:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But its being the stuff of your life doesn’t give you carte blanche to be wrong, and what these intellectual, clever, engaged men are trying to do is show you how you’ve allowed your life experiences to lead you to adopt erroneous beliefs and arrive at faulty conclusions. Their position is not that they get to be wrong in general. It’s that you don’t get to tell them them they are wrong for being emotionally invested. You should not act like it’s just an intellectual conversation, and thus not say things that could be seen as an attack on your opponent personally. I do find it strange that the guy who talks about how much more polite things were in the 50s has said in another thread that he doesn’t stop to think about how what he’s said comes across. That’s kinda a necessity for politeness. And politeness requires paying attention to the emotional state of the person you are talking to. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/516 "2014-12-13T22:12:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, good grief! If you’re whinging about the insult I hurled **faithfool’s** way, it was intended merely to imply she was a flatline when it came to sex appeal and rape never entered the picture. The thing you need to realize is that your intentions don’t really matter if everyone else sees it as meaning something else. The meaning of your communication is the meaning that is received. If you truly did not mean to offend, then apologize for saying something offensive instead of constantly defending yourself. Especially stop acting like people are assholes to have dared to be offended by what you said. Not that the comment wouldn’t have been out of line, even if it meant what you say it meant. The fact that you think it’s okay to comment about a woman’s sexual appeal as an insult during an argument–that’s where there is misogyny. Her sexual appeal is completely and totally irrelevant to her argument. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/517 "2014-12-13T22:25:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > My “interlocutor” is you yourself, and you didn’t say “entire” but I assumed this is what you meant when you called the notion misogynistic. > > If all you meant is that attractiveness is a plus quality in a woman, then it’s implicit in the insult but not misogynistic. The notion that it is okay to bring up the attractiveness of a woman in an argument as a counter/insult is what is misogynistic. It means that her attractiveness is of higher value than her argument. It doesn’t have to be her entire value to be offensive. Yeah, yeah, someone could do it equally to men. But they don’t. Stick with the real world, not hypotheticals. That’s where that line about realizing this isn’t just an intellectual exercise is relevant. And anyone who wants to call me on going through the thread backwards and responding late or whatever, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/518 "2014-12-13T22:50:07Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > Everyone at this late date who doesn’t realize the accusers can all see what the others have said and match their stories is a dumbass. Venal scum rape defender! :mad: 😛 (I’m sure I had an album by Venal Scum Rape Defenders back in the 1970s. They kinda dropped off after the first flush of punk wore off.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/519 "2014-12-14T00:25:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Meh. I’m not Cosby’s biggest fan. Multiple accusers doesn’t look good. But, lots of people accurately describe getting abducted by aliens and anally probed, too. So all rape victims are only as credible as alien abduction victims? I wonder if Bill Cosby is ever going to go to prison over this. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/520 "2014-12-14T00:50:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The problem with this is that you don’t have to tiptoe around all that much if you don’t have inherently offensive opinions about it to begin with. If you find yourself having to expend a lot of effort to not offend someone, that generally means you need to start questioning your own views. I don’t change my opinion to line up with what a few popular people on a message board think is the right view in order to fit in. I’m not you. > [@BigT](#): > > I also hope you see how ridiculous you were being back then. One set of threads by a single poster made you want to leave the entire board. And holding a grudge by the one person who is not in any way responsible. You really are just laughable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=27)