# Enough from the defenders of rapists already **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392 "2014-11-23T05:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/81 "2014-11-23T19:15:32Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I am, as I said in the other thread, defending a particular idea of not accusing anyone without substantiation. This! > [@Ibanez](#): > > I guess I’m a misogynist if I believe in due process. > > Has any of these women gone to the police yet ? And this! > [@DigitalC](#): > > Jesus christ, what a flaming moron you are. End especially this. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/82 "2014-11-23T19:20:46Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > I can only go by the words used: “I find myself full of condemnation for this man because there are 14 women who claim the same violent acts of drugging and raping.” **The Second Stone** clearly stated that he condemns Cosby “because” of the number of claims. That is not a clincher. In the way it was expressed, the number is the reason. Was there, perhaps, something else **The Second Stone** stated to cause you to believe otherwise? Like I said, my interpretation is different from yours, but I’d have to hear from **Second Stone** in reply to my question before we can settle the issue. Right now you and I are working from different assumptions–I assume people don’t generally think _blatantly_ irrational things\*, you think at least one person does. I don’t know how to argue about that, so the best we can do is get clarification from the one person we are talking about. \*People think irrationally all the time, but not like this, in my experience. And I teach Critical Thinking courses so I see it all. What people _do_ do, rather than thinking blatantly irrational and immediately-obviously false things, is _express themselves_ imprecisely in a way which, taken literally, would be blatantly irrational etc. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/83 "2014-11-23T19:22:32Z")
To **The Second Stone** : In my post #80, I made reference to your gender by using the personal pronoun “he”. I apologize if my assumption was in error as I do not know whether you are male or female. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/84 "2014-11-23T19:24:03Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Like I said, my interpretation is different from yours, but I’d have to hear from **Second Stone** in reply to my question before we can settle the issue. Right now you and I are working from different assumptions–I assume people don’t generally think _blatantly_ irrational things\*, you think at least one person does. I don’t know how to argue about that, so the best we can do is get clarification from the one person we are talking about. > > \*People think irrationally all the time, but not like this, in my experience. And I teach Critical Thinking courses so I see it all. What people _do_ do, rather than thinking blatantly irrational and immediately-obviously false things, is _express themselves_ imprecisely in a way which, taken literally, would be blatantly irrational etc. You said ‘do do’. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/85 "2014-11-23T19:25:02Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > People with (for the most part)\* nothing to gain are telling stories about what he did that (often independently) resemble each other\*\*. The stories have been surfacing for years. A pattern of behavior on his part known (independently of these stories) to have occurred matches known patterns of sexual grooming. Early comic routines he performed indicated attitudes suggestive of the very pattern of behavior contained in the stories that have been coming to light. No one who knows him is defending him. > > Each individual statement can, by itself, be “explained away,” but taken as a whole, the body of information is most plausibly explained by Cosby being a rapist. Other explanations of the information taken as a whole require implausibly conspiratorial ways of thinking, or require people to have done things that human beings don’t generally do. > > \*The only one I know of, in fact, that has anything to gain is the one who says she’s going to file a civil suit against him. None of the other accusers, that I know of, have anything monetary or otherwise to gain from coming out. > > \*\*And importantly, share details which are not shared in common with accusations of sexual misconduct more generally. Yeah, I started really thinking he did it due to the following: 1. The stories are similar but not identical, and all have a ring of being part of the same pathology on the part of the perpetrator, to the point where if they aren’t a coherent narrative, the women would have had to plan it out as a conspiracy, vs. random ad-hoc falsehoods. 2. A few of these people really seem like they have zero reason at all to come forward…in particular the L&O SVU actress, who has a successful career and is seeking no publicity or money at all. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/86 "2014-11-23T19:25:46Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I don’t really understand how being accused of a crime (though in no way actually being held culpable for it) is somehow a Much Worse Thing than being a victim of the same crime. Bill Cosby isn’t going to jail, he’s apparently felt compelled to pay out some cash which wasn’t enough to put more than a tiny dent in his net worth, and as we’ve apparently seen, crowds still give him standing ovations. I think he’ll be just fine, and that will be the case whether he did this thing or not. We basically have a situation where he either did it and is getting off scot-free, or he didn’t do it and he has to be uncomfortable about the accusations for a while. It seems to me a criminal getting off scot-free has to be a worse thing than this guy getting accused, most people not believing it, and him going along his merry way. > > Not to mention, there is absolutely no reason that the general public isn’t entitled to decide who they think is more credible in this story, and adjust their opinion of Bill Cosby accordingly. The only reason we all loved him in the first place was due to a public persona that may have zero to do with his actual character and personality. He made the most of that for years, and this is really no different. Better or worse doesn’t really come into it though, it is just wrong to make a life ruining judgement based only on accusations. Yeah Cosby will be fine, most people thankfully don’t feel like the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/87 "2014-11-23T19:32:45Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Better or worse doesn’t really come into it though, it is just wrong to make a life ruining judgement based only on accusations. Yeah Cosby will be fine, most people thankfully don’t feel like the OP. I disagree. It’s not life-ruining for one thing (that was my point), but either way, I’m as entitled not to believe him as you are not to believe the women. If you consider this he said/she said, then it’s for each individual person to decide which they find more plausible. Many many MANY more women are assaulted than innocent men accused. I just don’t really feel bad for the poor men who are so persecuted. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/88 "2014-11-23T19:38:00Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > It’s not life-ruining for one thing (that was my point) Well yeah, because people don’t feel like the op, but if most people agreed with him/her then Cosby would be pretty fucked. And it is not a matter of believing the men vs believing the women, it is about accuser vs accused. It is simply a better world in which it we err on the side of not punishing the innocent unjustly. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/89 "2014-11-23T19:44:48Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Well yeah, because people don’t feel like the op, but if most people agreed with him/her then Cosby would be pretty fucked. And it is not a matter of believing the men vs believing the women, it is about accuser vs accused. It is simply a better world in which it we err on the side of not punishing the innocent unjustly. Fucked how? He’s almost 80 years old, he has more money than he’ll ever need, he doesn’t have to work, he won’t go to jail. If he did this he really did get off scot-free. Here’s the thing…he’s going through this because he’s a celebrity. He’s put himself in the public eye for these last 50 years and has quite enjoyed having an adoring public. I’m not advocating putting him in jail without a trial. I’m advocating allowing people to form their own judgement over whether they want to support him by defending him and enjoying his work. If I say “yes I think he did this thing, and I don’t think I’ll be watching reruns of The Cosby Show anymore,” that doesn’t even fucking hurt him. So yes, it’s better not to punish the innocent unjustly, but he isn’t being punished, people are merely changing their opinions of him. I think he’ll survive, and I really don’t think it’s going to change the reality of the world we live in, which is that sexual predators get away with it far more than not. ---
**Author:** ![kstarnes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4da419/32.png) [@kstarnes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kstarnes)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/90 "2014-11-23T19:51:26Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Many many MANY more women are assaulted than innocent men accused. I just don’t really feel bad for the poor men who are so persecuted. False charges of rape are a lot more common than you think. For ideological reasons, there’s a push against the idea taking hold–to deny that it’s common. I’ll flesh this out for you later. Remember: just like rape is sometimes about power, false rape accusations are always and entirely about power. It’s a form of rape itself (since we’re so expansive about calling everything rape.) ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/91 "2014-11-23T20:10:21Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I don’t really understand how being accused of a crime (though in no way actually being held culpable for it) is somehow a Much Worse Thing than being a victim of the same crime. Not that I’ve the first idea whether Cosby did what it’s alleged he did, but I really do understand how being accused of a crime (though in no way actually being held culpable for it) is indeed a Much Worse Thing than being a victim of the same crime - if the crime in question never actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/92 "2014-11-23T20:18:26Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Well yeah, because people don’t feel like the op, but if most people agreed with him/her then Cosby would be pretty fucked. And it is not a matter of believing the men vs believing the women, it is about accuser vs accused. It is simply a better world in which it we err on the side of not punishing the innocent unjustly. Plus how about this? How about society giving the accusers _just enough_ benefit of the doubt so that these cases actually make it to court and the evidence is weighed properly? How about if women aren’t shamed, humiliated, intimidated, or dismissed into not speaking out, not pressing charges, going away quietly? You’re so right, we’re not supposed to ruin lives based on accusations, we’re supposed to investigate based on accusations, we’re supposed to try people based on the investigation, and were supposed to convict (or not) based on the trial. How about considering sexual and other kinds of violence against women serious enough crimes to at least give the investigation part a fair shake, and not start right there dismissing it out-of-hand because, you know, women are liars and men are paragons of virtue? That would be fucking awesome. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/93 "2014-11-23T20:26:06Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Fucked how? He’s almost 80 years old, he has more money than he’ll ever need, he doesn’t have to work, he won’t go to jail. If he did this he really did get off scot-free. We are just going in circles here. If we lived in a world were everyone thought like the OP does he would be rotting in jail without even a trial, hell that is if he was lucky. Obviously we don’t so he is fine. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Plus how about this? How about society giving the accusers _just enough_ benefit of the doubt so that these cases actually make it to court and the evidence is weighed properly? How about if women aren’t shamed, humiliated, intimidated, or dismissed into not speaking out, not pressing charges, going away quietly? You’re so right, we’re not supposed to ruin lives based on accusations, we’re supposed to investigate based on accusations, we’re supposed to try people based on the investigation, and were supposed to convict (or not) based on the trial. How about considering sexual and other kinds of violence against women serious enough crimes to at least give the investigation part a fair shake, and not start right there dismissing it out-of-hand because, you know, women are liars and men are paragons of virtue? That would be fucking awesome. Hmm…sure? Who is arguing against this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/94 "2014-11-23T20:28:37Z")
> [@kstarnes](#): > > I’ll flesh this out for you later. Please don’t, you misogynistic, racist douchebag. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/95 "2014-11-23T20:29:59Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > We are just going in circles here. If we lived in a world were everyone thought like the OP does > > he would be rotting in jail without even a trial, Doesn’t follow, given the important distinction that has been highlighted over and over between what it takes to convict a person in court and what it takes to be reasonably certain about something. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/96 "2014-11-23T20:33:56Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Many many MANY more women are assaulted than innocent men accused. I just don’t really feel bad for the poor men who are so persecuted. [Bullshit](http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/avfms-mega-post-10-reasons-false-rape-accusations-are-common/) Your implying that women aren’t as shitty as men, which is a load of shit. It’s also telling you don’t give a shit about men who are actually falsely accused. Do you have a son ? I hope you don’t. If 5 young boys came out to media sources but not police and said a young female teacher sexually assaulted them. You’d be ok with everyone here labeling her a rapists right ? Anyone who is picking sides in this freak show are morons. Condemning people for not picking the right side makes you an extra special type of moron. It’s as simple as that. Until he’s charged with something, I don’t give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/97 "2014-11-23T20:36:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Doesn’t follow, given the important distinction that has been highlighted over and over between what it takes to convict a person in court and what it takes to be reasonably certain about something. It does follow given how little regard the OP has for whether someone has actually been convicted or even tried before pronouncing them guilty beyond doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/98 "2014-11-23T20:37:19Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Bull fucking shit. > > There are multiple rape allegations against Bill Clinton. They are every bit as credible as the ones made against Cosby. I’m not aware of “multiple rape allegations” being made against Bill Clinton. I’m aware of one. Juanita Broderick. I will also agree that it is credible, but hardly enough to convict in a court of law. Beyond that, I’m not a fan of Clinton and wouldn’t casually dismiss the claim, but I don’t think it can fairly be compared to Cosby’s case. 1 is not 16. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/99 "2014-11-23T20:42:53Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > [Bullshit](http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/avfms-mega-post-10-reasons-false-rape-accusations-are-common/) > > Your implying that women aren’t as shitty as men, which is a load of shit. It’s also telling you don’t give a shit about men who are actually falsely accused. Do you have a son ? I hope you don’t. Sure do. And I worry FAR more about my daughter actually getting assaulted than I do about him being falsely accused. FAR more. > [@](#): > > If 5 young boys came out to media sources but not police and said a young female teacher sexually assaulted them. You’d be ok with everyone here labeling her a rapists right ? I don’t think I’d have a problem with that. > [@](#): > > Anyone who is picking sides in this freak show are morons. Condemning people for not picking the right side makes you an extra special type of moron. It’s as simple as that. > > Until he’s charged with something, I don’t give a shit. Noted, thanks for your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392/100 "2014-11-23T21:05:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not aware of “multiple rape allegations” being made against Bill Clinton. > > I’m aware of one. Juanita Broderick. I will also agree that it is credible, but hardly enough to convict in a court of law. > > Beyond that, I’m not a fan of Clinton and wouldn’t casually dismiss the claim, but I don’t think it can fairly be compared to Cosby’s case. 1 is not 16. Cosby has not been accused of rape by 16 women. Not even close. Take away the ones who weren’t raped at all but merely kissed unexpectedly or touched inappropriately or woke up not knowing what happened, and those who lived with him and/or received money and schooling afterward (sorry, but I’m not buying for a moment that it’s common behavior for rape victims to choose to live with and embark upon financial and romantic relationships with their rapists) and those who went along with whatever happened sexually while doing absolutely nothing to make it known they didn’t want to, and you’re probably down to 3 or 4 _at the most_, and no one can say with any degree of certainty that they’re being honest. There’s just too much room for after the fact resentment or guilt, too much in the way of potential money from lawsuits or settlements, and way too little in the way of corroborating evidence to assume without question that even those 3 or 4 have no ulterior motives and are being honest in their claims that Cosby raped them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-from-the-defenders-of-rapists-already/705392.md?page=6)