# Enough With The Epithets, JThunder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231 "2005-08-09T03:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/21 "2005-08-09T11:55:13Z")
Most people in my home state (West Virginia) don’t consider ‘hillbilly’ to be derogatory. Rather, it’s a descriptive term for the isolated culture of the Appalachians – ‘mountaineer’ is a more dignified (if somewhat archaic) synonym. The state motto is “Montani Semper Liberi”: Mountaineers are Always Free". When used in the first person, ‘hillbilly’ sometimes denotes a mild self-deprecation. There was a venerable newspaper (really a weekly magazine) published for years in WV until the death of its founder Jim Comstock a few years ago. It was a fascinating blend of humor, political commentary and mountain culture, and received much acclaim, including support from the Ford Foundation. It was called “Hillbilly”. It’s masthead proudly proclaimed it, “A newspaper for people who can’t read, published by people who can’t write”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/22 "2005-08-09T12:01:19Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > What seems to me (a Southerner by birth) more an issue is how these terms seem to allow others in other regions of the country (and even in other countries) to express their supposed superiority (of intellect, education, position in society, etc.) with a casual slur about people in a region that continues to be seen (by those ignorant of its virtues) as the same place it was in Civil War, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, Civil Rights Movement, Birmingham, Selma, sit-ins, etc., days. > > To those of you with those views and sentiments, and who feel that labels such as redneck and hillbilly are funny and innocent, I suggest you look around you, wherever you live, and see if there aren’t some others closer to home that you can denigrate. I agree completely. I’m a Southerner too, and all my life, I had heard the terms redneck and hillbilly. My own family is from the Cherokee region of the Great Smokey mountains, and so we have been called hillbillies ourselves. But lexographically, the words have different meanings depending on who uses them and how. An old mountain woman saying, “My grandson Josh is one hardworking hillbilly,” carries a completely different meaning from a Minneapolitan snob saying, “That mush-mouthed Josh guy is nothing but a hillbilly.” ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/23 "2005-08-09T12:03:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Okay, so it’s average schmoe against average schmoe. Why are you not arguing with the categorical declaration made in post #2? Well, because I agree with it. I _don’t_ think it implies race, I think it implies class. The fact that the stereotypical redneck/hillbilly in the popular imagination is most often white doesn’t mean the term was invented solely as a racial epithet. > [@Zeldar](#): > > To those of you with those views and sentiments, and who feel that labels such as redneck and hillbilly are funny and innocent, I suggest you look around you, wherever you live, and see if there aren’t some others closer to home that you can denigrate. > > I, for one Sotherner, feel you’re just demonstrating your own pathetic ignorance. The fact that you view it as a slur on people from a particular region of the country sounds like your own issue. I live on the west coast, and I use the terms for people out here a lot more often than I do for people from the South (mostly because I live out here and this is where I run into them, I’d wager). Guess what? We have backwoods and rural areas out here, too, believe it or not. Though as I said earlier, we’re much more likely to use the word “ghetto” in an urban area to denote the same qualities, because (again, I’m guessing) ghettos are far more abundant in the cities than mountains and farms. And again, it’s more an aspersion on a person’s ignorance than their race. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/24 "2005-08-09T12:03:59Z")
> [@Ashes](#): > > How the words are perceived has changed. Redneck is used with self-deprecating humor by many so labeled. Much of the sting has been removed because it’s been claimed by the group it names. Why is this not true of “nigger?” The same conditions apply. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/25 "2005-08-09T12:06:45Z")
**Liberal** , I’ll have you know that Minneapolitan is my favorite ice cream. Don’t you ever speak that way of it again! Since the only fair measure of whether or not a word is meant as an insult, why not wait and see what JThunder meant instead of deciding it for him. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/26 "2005-08-09T12:07:58Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > The fact that you view it as a slur on people from a particular region of the country sounds like your own issue. I live on the west coast, and I use the terms for people out here a lot more often than I do for people from the South (mostly because I live out here and this is where I run into them, I’d wager). Guess what? We have backwoods and rural areas out here, too, believe it or not. Though as I said earlier, we’re much more likely to use the word “ghetto” in an urban area to denote the same qualities, because (again, I’m guessing) ghettos are far more abundant in the cities than mountains and farms. And again, it’s more an aspersion on a person’s ignorance than their race. I read nothing in **Zeldar’s** post that mentioned race. This was the significant (and as yet unanswered) question. > [@Zeldar](#): > > I’m just curious. Do any of you defending the notion that “redneck” and “hillbilly” (and related terms) are not slurs of the same caliber as other well-known (and not repeated here) epithets, believe it elevates the dialog to use these generalizations as if they actually convey meaningful information? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/27 "2005-08-09T12:09:47Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Since the only fair measure of whether or not a word is meant as an insult, why not wait and see what JThunder meant instead of deciding it for him. Can I assume that you join those of us who believe that the hate speech rule in the Pit is pointless? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/28 "2005-08-09T12:10:55Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Well, because I agree with it. Isn’t it intellectually disingenuous to point out the subjectivity of opinions that differ from yours but refrain from pointing out that fact about those with which you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/29 "2005-08-09T12:12:00Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > **Liberal** , I’ll have you know that Minneapolitan is my favorite ice cream. Don’t you ever speak that way of it again! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/30 "2005-08-09T12:14:11Z")
You know, being white myself, I suppose I should try to empathize with my oppressed brethren. Here’s a surefire 3-step plan to make yourself feel better whenever the racist bastards start up with the hate speech: 1. Get in your SUV and go on a nice shopping spree at Banana Republic; 2. Get a nice venti decaf Mocha (because you have no problem with the chocolate!) Frap at your local Starbuck’s (even if you _are_ a hillbilly and live in a remote mountain range, I’m sure there’s one within walking distance); and 3. Sit down in front of your (preferably widescreen) TV and surf the dial until you happen upon a syndicated episode of _Friends_ or _Will & Grace_. After this, I guarantee you’ll once again be secure in the knowledge that there’s no shame in being white. Good luck! {{{hugs}}} ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/31 "2005-08-09T12:15:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Isn’t it intellectually disingenuous to point out the subjectivity of opinions that differ from yours but refrain from pointing out that fact about those with which you agree? Probably. But I haven’t had my bagel yet this morning, so my mind’s a little fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/32 "2005-08-09T12:22:01Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > You know, being white myself, I suppose I should try to empathize with my oppressed brethren. Here’s a surefire 3-step plan to make yourself feel better whenever the racist bastards start up with the hate speech: > > 1. Get in your SUV and go on a nice shopping spree at Banana Republic; > > 2. Get a nice venti decaf Mocha (because you have no problem with the chocolate!) Frap at your local Starbuck’s (even if you _are_ a hillbilly and live in a remote mountain range, I’m sure there’s one within walking distance); > > and 3. Sit down in front of your (preferably widescreen) TV and surf the dial until you happen upon a syndicated episode of _Friends_ or _Will & Grace_. > > After this, I guarantee you’ll once again be secure in the knowledge that there’s no shame in being white. > > Good luck! > {{{hugs}}} Nice try. Do you seriously think any of that describes a hilbilly, redneck, or white trash life? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/33 "2005-08-09T12:22:27Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > 1. Get a nice venti decaf Mocha (because you have no problem with the chocolate!) Frap at your local Starbuck’s (even if you _are_ a hillbilly and live in a remote mountain range, I’m sure there’s one within walking distance) Maybe you wouldn’t mind delivering a cappuccino to [these people](http://www.imagist.com/photo/images/family_01.jpg). They don’t have decent shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/34 "2005-08-09T12:30:45Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Can I assume that you join those of us who believe that the hate speech rule in the Pit is pointless? Yes and no. Some words just inherently carry baggage with them. Plus when you are using the language in question in the pit, you’re obviously using it as a dig and _intentionally_ bringing the baggage. Redneck and hillbilly just don’t carry the same weight as a general rule. People may have their personal beefs with them, but I guarantee that yelling “stupid redneck” out my front door at a white person will not get the same reaction as yelling “dumb tarbaby” at a black person. I would love for everyone to get past their linguistic hangups and be able to use every possible word. I just don’t see it happening In this case, the thread in question was in imho. We don’t have a frame of reference for what he meant so we can’t judge if he meant “redneck” and “hillbilly” to be insults or genial nicknames. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/35 "2005-08-09T12:32:57Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I read nothing in **Zeldar’s** post that mentioned race. This was the significant (and as yet unanswered) question. Really? Unanswered? OK, I figured you’d be able to glean the answer from what I wrote. No, I don’t think they’re slurs of the same caliber, as I think they’re based on a person’s ignorance (which can be changed) rather than something like skin color or gender preference (which can’t). Do I think the generalizations convey useful information? Yes, if there’s agreement on the terms, which apparently there’s not on this board. “Hillbilly” is much less tedious than “that person with no idea of social conventions who also has quite backwards views on many things ranging from justice to hygiene to science to miscegenation”. But then, I’m also lazy. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/36 "2005-08-09T12:37:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Maybe you wouldn’t mind delivering a cappuccino to [these people](http://www.imagist.com/photo/images/family_01.jpg). They don’t have decent shoes. I’ll tell you what I’d like to deliver to those people: 160 lbs. of pure, unconditional, nonjudgemental _love_, for they are my fellow human beings, and they are suffering. And also maybe some penicillin. And condoms. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/37 "2005-08-09T12:43:19Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Nice try. Do you seriously think any of that describes a hilbilly, redneck, or white trash life? If you go by my above definition of hillbilly or redneck ("…person with no idea of social conventions etc. blah blah") (and who said anything about "white trash? Racist!), then yes. Yes I do. In fact, I’ve stood behind those people almost every time I ran over to get my boss his coffee and muffin. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/38 "2005-08-09T12:44:26Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Yes and no. Some words just inherently carry baggage with them. It is logically inconsistent to assert that the only true measure of a word is what is intended and also assert that some words have necessary meanings. > [@Woody](#): > > Really? Unanswered? OK, I figured you’d be able to glean the answer from what I wrote. No, I don’t think they’re slurs of the same caliber, as I think they’re based on a person’s ignorance (which can be changed) rather than something like skin color or gender preference (which can’t). If you asked 1000 people to draw a picture of a hilbilly or a redneck 999 would draw a white person. It is a twisted bit of reasoning to claim that race is not a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/39 "2005-08-09T12:49:24Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > If you go by my above definition of hillbilly or redneck ("…person with no idea of social conventions etc. blah blah") (and who said anything about "white trash? Racist!), then yes. Yes I do. In fact, I’ve stood behind those people almost every time I ran over to get my boss his coffee and muffin. If your definition of a hilbilly is predicated upon ownership of an SUV, and the wherewithall to shop at Bananna republic, Starbuck’s, and Circuit City, then you have chosen a definition that is contrary to the norm by about 180 degrees. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/40 "2005-08-09T13:07:54Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If your definition of a hilbilly is predicated upon ownership of an SUV, and the wherewithall to shop at Bananna republic, Starbuck’s, and Circuit City, then you have chosen a definition that is contrary to the norm by about 180 degrees. **Contra** , **Contra** , you lovable scamp. Obviously, my tongue hath been in mine cheek. The first post about the SUVs etc. was aimed at the white people _in this thread_ (who I feel it’s safe to presume are neither rednecks nor hillbillies) who seemed to be getting so upset about these “slurs against whitey”. My second post, which you base this response on, was merely me playing along, because I thought we were sharing an ironical sort of in-joke. Now I must wallow in my shame at the prospect that you’re taking me seriously. …Or ARE you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=3)