# Enough With The Epithets, JThunder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231 "2005-08-09T03:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/61 "2005-08-09T16:27:03Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > The offensive nature is that lackwits and lazy people who have no better clue about other people in their environment will use such terms as if they are humorous. The fact that these terms are meant to poke fun at a class of people (many times located in the Southern – or at least rural – sections of the country) who are with less education, breeding, financial standing, just shows how inadequate these people’s (those choosing to use such terms) opinions are to begin with. It’s as if they’re saying, “Hey! I’m stupid. Ignore what I say.” Thing is, Hillbilly is pretty much custom-designed for people in my **county**. I can walk down the street to a furniture store totally staffed by hillbillies. Those guys down at the furniture shop? The hillbillies? From the little I’ve seen of them, awesome people. The guys from South Carolina who sell me peaches at the farmer’s market? Hillbillies through and through, and interacting with them brightens my day. They may be horrible people for all I know: they may join the KKK, beat their wives, vote for Jesse Helms. But it’s not their hillbilliness that makes them bad. I love their hillbilliness, and not in some patronizing way, but because it’s got a certain laid-back panache to it that I dig. I suspect if you asked a lot of them if they were hillbillies, they let out a raspy chuckle, think on it for a few long seconds, and say, “Yeh.” Awesome. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/62 "2005-08-09T16:40:13Z")
> [@DeadlyAccurate](#): > > I think “the,” “and,” and “is” are still non-offensive to most people. Sorry I don’t like ‘the’ as it offends me and others who have some difficulty in pronouncing ‘th’ sound and somethimes make ‘vat’ and ‘that’ sound the same. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/63 "2005-08-09T17:11:30Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Irrelevant. The point is that, though a word may stereotypically be associated with a particular race/gender/etc., many people will, when confronted with the stereotype, admit that the word works perfectly well when applied counter-type. My point is that the word **is** sterotypically associated with whites. Glad we agree. > [@Lefty](#): > > While I hate to ruin your fascination, I gotta say that you clearly don’t understand me. I say they’re less offensive for a trio of reasons: > > 1. I find them less offensive, so from my view, they’re less offensive; and > 2. I strongly suspect that most people who are called “redneck” and “hillbilly” are not quite as offended as most folks who are called “dork” and “geek”; and > 3. I strongly suspect that most people who call someone “redneck” and “hillbilly” intend slightly less offense than most folks who calls someone “dork” and “geek.” > > That’s entirely consistent with the common-sense view that words have no inherent meaning, but that words derive their power from the shared meaning assigned to them by a culture. So even though people \*\*in this thread \*\* have taken offense at these terms, that is overridden by what **you** think is offensive, and what you **suspect** about others. I assure you that those of us who are offended do not “share” your meaning. > [@Lefty](#): > > T’ain’t all about you, friend. Nice. You respond\*\* to me\*\* with an insinuation and then accuse me of being self-centered. > [@Lefty](#): > > Do you genuinely believe that folks stereotypically considered hillbillies would be as upset by your use of the word against them as folks stereotypically considered niggers would be by your use of that word against them? Absolutely not. Is that the gold standard now? Are words deemed not as offensive as nigger OK? Because I think ‘nigger’ is just about the nastiest word in the language, and am happy to learn that anything else goes. **Miller** –It’s offensive because it refers to white people almost exclusively. > [@Woody](#): > > Which ties into what Left Hand of Dorkness is saying: comparing these terms to words like “nigger” or “slope” makes you look somewhat foolish. Especially when it seems to be mostly white people who use the words (at least around here - “cracker” seems to be more racially charged). T’aint all about me, Woody. Just ask **Lefty**. And not to carve too fine a point on it, I suspect you guys mean ‘equate’ rather than ‘compare.’ Surely **any** two words can be compared. > [@Holmes](#): > > Yes, but you said you take your cue from Richard Pryor’s decision to stop using the word. So I ask again, if Mr. Pryor decided tomorrow that using nigger in certain contents and contexts wasn’t racist, would you agree? Are you asking me if Pryor _speaks_ for me, or _thinks_ for me? No. His thoughts on the subject are what opened my eyes, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/64 "2005-08-09T17:31:59Z")
> [@](#): > > In 200 years, it might be a race-neutral word that connotes “friend”. The history of language is full of such flip-flops. We’re closer than that if you count “Nigga” (notice the r is absent). But I consider that a separate word with a different meaning. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/65 "2005-08-09T17:37:46Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Are you asking me if Pryor _speaks_ for me, or _thinks_ for me? No. His thoughts on the subject are what opened my eyes, that’s all. Right, your opinion on the use of nigger is based on Mr. Pryor’s evaluation of using the term in his act. His decision that it was inappropriate, no matter what the context and that he won’t use it anymore, shaped the way you view the term’s use. Is that a fair accessment? So I ask again, if Mr. Pryor previous use of the term nigger, was ground-breaking and award winning; whose declaration that he would no longer use the term was equally ground-breaking enough to “open your eyes”; if he started using the term again, would you question your position or would you close your eyes and ignore the re-evaluation of Mr. Pryor; whose previous evaluation you valued? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/66 "2005-08-09T17:39:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Apparently, some people disagree with you. The [Racial Slur Database](http://www.rsdb.org/) says, “Redneck, Hick and Hillbilly are all used as derogatory terms for whites.” Words acquire their meaning largely through popular usage. If we were to hold a formal vote amongst the membership of the Straight Dope Message Board, I bet a strong majority would say it’s not an epithet. A vocal minority of people taking offense where none is intended to be given doesn’t change the epithet status of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/67 "2005-08-09T17:50:00Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Right, your opinion on the use of nigger is based on Mr. Pryor’s evaluation of using the term in his act. His decision that it was inappropriate, no matter what the context and that he won’t use it anymore, shaped the way you view the term’s use. Is that a fair accessment? Yes. > [@](#): > > _So I ask again, if Mr. Pryor previous use of the term nigger, was ground-breaking and award winning; whose declaration that he would no longer use the term was equally ground-breaking enough to “open your eyes”; if he started using the term again, would you question your position or would you close your eyes and ignore the re-evaluation of Mr. Pryor; whose previous evaluation you valued_? Well the first time you asked whether I would _agree_; now you are asking if I would _question my position._ Two entirely different things, don’t you think? So you’re really not asking me anything _again_, are you? As to the current version of your hypothetical, if Richard Pryor changes his position I would consider what he says with the same critical analysis I attempt to apply to every topic that I consider important. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be implying that if I have ever supported a position espoused by Person X, I am forever bound to his philosophy, whether it changes or not. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/68 "2005-08-09T17:51:53Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Words acquire their meaning largely through popular usage. If we were to hold a formal vote amongst the membership of the Straight Dope Message Board, I bet a strong majority would say it’s not an epithet. A vocal minority of people taking offense where none is intended to be given doesn’t change the epithet status of the word. You are aware that there are words deemed offensive on the SDMB no matter who says them, or with what intent, are you not? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/69 "2005-08-09T17:55:50Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You are aware that there are words deemed offensive on the SDMB no matter who says them, or with what intent, are you not? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/70 "2005-08-09T17:57:53Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Words acquire their meaning largely through popular usage. If we were to hold a formal vote amongst the membership of the Straight Dope Message Board, I bet a strong majority would say it’s not an epithet. A vocal minority of people taking offense where none is intended to be given doesn’t change the epithet status of the word. What is your position on this issue if you – a minority of one – happen to be offended by a word that someone said, whether they intended offense or not? Would you ask for a poll of SDMB before you reacted? Would you then adjust your feelings of being offended based on that outcome? Does your feeling count for anything in this process? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/71 "2005-08-09T17:59:04Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Words acquire their meaning largely through popular usage. If we were to hold a formal vote amongst the membership of the Straight Dope Message Board, I bet a strong majority would say it’s not an epithet. A vocal minority of people taking offense where none is intended to be given doesn’t change the epithet status of the word. Not taking that bet, nosiree. I value my hard-earned money too much. If we took a vote here, we might find that God doesn’t exist, Hillary isn’t a dick, and Kathy Bates is not one of the great villains in cinema. Some words indeed are universally inflammatory. Even Stormfront strictly forbids use of the word “nigger”, but not because it offends blacks; rather, because it offends whites whom they hope to recruit. Now, if the board membership is closed, and this community as presently constructed is not taking on new patients, then fine. Let’s call people fundies but not faggots, and ditchpigs but not nigglets. But if we are to be as open and tolerant as our poll would doubtless reveal us to be, let’s be mindful of people who pass by from time to time and might otherwise be inclined to pay up and join. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/72 "2005-08-09T18:03:33Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > **Miller** –It’s offensive because it refers to white people almost exclusively. And yet, I’m white. And I’m not offended by it. Neither are any of my white friends or white family members. Seems to me, if it were a racial slur, it should offend people of the race it purportedly denigrates. So, is the term not actually denigrating towards white people? Or am I not really white? Again, I’m not arguing that the terms are not offensive _at all_. Just that the offense is primarily economic/classist in origin, and not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/73 "2005-08-09T18:05:11Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Cite? [Gladly.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6333096&postcount=117) Pay attention to the second sentence, first paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/74 "2005-08-09T18:14:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And yet, I’m white. And I’m not offended by it. Neither are any of my white friends or white family members. Seems to me, if it were a racial slur, it should offend people of the race it purportedly denigrates. So, is the term not actually denigrating towards white people? Or am I not really white? Are those my only two choices? If I could find ten black people not offended by ‘nigger’ would the word lose it’s sting? I’m white, and I’m offended. Why are my, and **Liberal’s** , and **Hyperelastic’s** sensibilities not worthy of consideration, yet yours and your friends’ are? > [@Miller](#): > > Again, I’m not arguing that the terms are not offensive _at all_. Just that the offense is primarily economic/classist in origin, and not racist. I’m familiar with that argument. I do not believe that I have asserted in this thread that redneck and hillbilly are racist; only that it is disingenuous to claim, as most do, that race is not a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/75 "2005-08-09T18:18:44Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > [Gladly.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6333096&postcount=117) Pay attention to the second sentence, first paragraph. Your cite seems to back me up. While acknowleding other words as offensive, “hillbilly” isn’t considered to be a “suckerpunch to the gut and nothing more” like “raghead” would be. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/76 "2005-08-09T18:24:27Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Your cite seems to back me up. While acknowleding other words as offensive, “hillbilly” isn’t considered to be a “suckerpunch to the gut and nothing more” like “raghead” would be. Granted. The larger point, however, is that the meanings of certain words are not determined by general usage, but by fiat. That is what you requested the cite for. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/77 "2005-08-09T18:27:31Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > **Contrapuntal** you want fairness where there isn’t. You want the rules to make sense and they don’t. Is the term Rapper, racist? > > If you ask 1000 people to draw a rapper, 999 will draw a black person; Is Rapper a racist term? If I walk up to a black person, who is “dressed” as a rapper and say, you Rapper, I’ve committed hate speech am I a racist? How about if I say “you stupid Rapper”, is that racist? How about, “you’re white, stop acting like a rapper?” Racist yet? > > How does it work, again? > > It needs to have the perception of a particular “race”. Check. > It needs to have a negative connotation. Check. > > So, why isn’t Rapper a racist term or is it? Sorry I missed this, **holmes**. Where in this post have you established that Rapper has a negative conotation? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/78 "2005-08-09T18:33:07Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be implying that if I have ever supported a position espoused by Person X, I am forever bound to his philosophy, whether it changes or not. You’re wrong. What I’m trying to do is find a line in sand. In this and other threads you keep tossing out Richard Pryor’s declaration as if that’s the line and you admit that it “opened your eyes.” In fact your whole stance appears comes from THAT declaration, Mr. Pryor says nigger is inappropriate in any context, then white trash, hillbilly, MUST be too. Fair’s, fair. The problem is of course, Mr. Pryor continued to use the term in his act, after his declaration. Therefor Mr. Pryor must believe in certain context, the term is appropriate and therefor to be fair, other epithets must be too. Now of course you may disagree with Mr. Pryor’s continued usage; you may of course feel that Mr. Pryor was correct even though he still used the term in his act…I simply question whether or you should use Mr. Pryor as the poster child of appropriate speech, when he himself has different rules than you attribute to him. By reducing him to that one declaration, you diminish all the great social commentary he contributed when he did use the word and you have to ignore that he still used it. Context is everything. THAT’s what you should have taken from Richard Pryor’s declaration and continued usage. > [@](#): > > Spiritually renewed by a trip to Africa, he declared he would never use the word “nigger” again. Pryor resurfaced in 1982 with Live on the Sunset Strip, one of the most critically acclaimed comic performances in history. He did indeed use the word nigger onstage, but his humor turned gentler and more introspective. [Pryor](http://www.richardpryor.com/history.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/79 "2005-08-09T18:36:43Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Sorry I missed this, **holmes**. Where in this post have you established that Rapper has a negative conotation? You don’t think that rap music has a negative connotation in this country? You don’t think that most people believe that that majority of rap musicians are of a certain ‘race’? What, I have to post it first, before you acknowledge it exists? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/80 "2005-08-09T18:40:22Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Granted. The larger point, however, is that the meanings of certain words are not determined by general usage, but by fiat. That is what you requested the cite for. The moderators certainly have the power to declare words to be unacceptable by fiat, but as far as I can tell they are using general usage as the yardstick here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=5)