# Enough With The Epithets, JThunder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231 "2005-08-09T03:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/81 "2005-08-09T18:48:45Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Context is everything. THAT’s what you should have taken from Richard Pryor’s declaration and continued usage. > > [Pryor](http://www.richardpryor.com/history.cfm) Cite for Pryor using the N-word on stage after his Sunset Strip monologue _about_ his decision to stop using the word? He did use the word in that monologue, but only to discuss his epiphany about it. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/82 "2005-08-09T18:57:27Z")
You are correct **DTC** , but he could have said, “N-word”, he could have said, “that word, I’m not going to say anymore.” He didn’t because the word was appropriate within the context of it’s use. Context and content. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/83 "2005-08-09T19:26:50Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > If the best one can find to be amused by is people with lower social standing than one’s own, I contend that those standards of entertainment are best suited to Beavis and Butthead level humor. That’s the effect that the thread being pitted had on me, and why I’ve chosen to express my disgust with it here. > > If this all has no real meaning to you, why did you post here? The taking of offense doesn’t bother me. It is the transport of said umbrage into threads where it doesn’t belong that bothers me. I find your position (that white trash, redneck and hillbilly are dreadful slurs) to be ridiculous beyond imagining. I think a fair majority of others agree with me. I fear a flood of the easily offended coming in to threads in other fora to let us know just how offended they are. I actually never read the thread in question and have interest in it. My reaction is a mix of shock that anyone takes offense this easily, and trepidation over the prospect of seeing decent threads hijacked because someone dared to use the descriptive ‘redneck’. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/84 "2005-08-09T19:36:30Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The moderators certainly have the power to declare words to be unacceptable by fiat, but as far as I can tell they are using general usage as the yardstick here. You asked for a cite for certain words being offensive no matter who says them or in what context. I provided that. > [@holmes](#): > > You’re wrong. What I’m trying to do is find a line in sand. In this and other threads you keep tossing out Richard Pryor’s declaration as if that’s the line and you admit that it “opened your eyes.” For the record. Let there be no mistake. It is not a line in the sand. It is the event that opened my eyes. > [@holmes](#): > > In fact your whole stance appears comes from THAT declaration, Mr. Pryor says nigger is inappropriate in any context, then white trash, hillbilly, MUST be too. Fair’s, fair. This is my stance. I abhor\*\* all \*\* words or phrases that reduce humans to stereotypical labels. I abhor **all** words or phrases that place some humans beneath other humans _as a group_. Such words are hateful, demeaning, and vile. They have tremendous capacity to wound. The context which Mr. Pryor referred to was it’s use _as a pejorative_. IIRC, he did not vow never to use the word again, only never to \*call \* someone a nigger. > [@holmes](#): > > I simply question whether or you should use Mr. Pryor as the poster child of appropriate speech, when he himself has different rules than you attribute to him. By reducing him to that one declaration, you diminish all the great social commentary he contributed when he did use the word and you have to ignore that he still used it. Trust me. All of this is in your head. Neither at any time nor any place have I “reduc[ed] him to that one declaration.” > [@holmes](#): > > You are correct DTC, but he could have said, “N-word”, he could have said, “that word, I’m not going to say anymore.” He didn’t because the word was appropriate within the context of it’s use. Oh please. My objection to nigger, white trash, hillbilly, et.al., are from is to their use as a pejorative, not as a word devoid of malice. > [@holmes](#): > > You don’t think that rap music has a negative connotation in this country? You don’t think that most people believe that that majority of rap musicians are of a certain ‘race’? > > What, I have to post it first, before you acknowledge it exists? Well, you said rapper, not rap music, and I wasn’t questioning the race of the stereotypical rapper, but let’s look at some figures. [cite](http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/14106914) From the article- \*Thanks to the likes of Usher and Jones, R&B led all genres, moving 162 million copies in 2004. Alternative music accounted for 132 million in sales, followed by rap (81 million), country (78 million) and metal (75 million). \* I’d say rap’s doin’ all right. Those are some pretty impressive sales figures for a genre with a ‘negative connotation.’ ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/85 "2005-08-09T19:44:35Z")
> [@fruitbat](#): > > The taking of offense doesn’t bother me. It is the transport of said umbrage into threads where it doesn’t belong that bothers me. I find your position (that white trash, redneck and hillbilly are dreadful slurs) to be ridiculous beyond imagining. I think a fair majority of others agree with me. I fear a flood of the easily offended coming in to threads in other fora to let us know just how offended they are. This seems to be a bit of circular reasoning. You know these folks must be easily offended because they are offended by that which clearly does not offend. Glad to know that you’re out there validating or invalidating our responses as you deem fit. I think these lovely _ **Hubris** _ slides should fit you quite well. Oh, look! A pair of \*\*\*Unmitigated Gall \*\* \* loafers! And just your shade! Babyshit brown. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/86 "2005-08-09T20:26:03Z")
**Contrapuntal** , why do you think I have not received a warning for my use of the n-word in this thread? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/87 "2005-08-09T20:28:26Z")
For anyone who hasn’t found it yet, there are some really good white trash-style recipes on the [Southern Culture On The Skids](http://www.scots.com/recipes/default.htm) website. A sampling: POSSUM AND CHESTNUTS 1 Possum 1 Pot boiling water 1 Handful chestnuts 1 Handful apple sauce 1 Handful breadcrumbs 1 sweet potato 1/2 Cup lemon juice 1/4 Cup butter Skin Possum, remove glands and entrails. Scrape clean and scald in boiling water. Rub inside and out with salt and pepper and set in a cool place. Stuff with chestnuts, applesauce, and bread crumbs in equal proportions. Cover with slices of sweet potato, 1 C. Boiling water, 1/2 C. Lemon Juice. Bake in butter and baste often until tender. The Dump Cake sounds really good too. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/88 "2005-08-09T20:46:18Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Since the only fair measure of whether or not a word is meant as an insult, why not wait and see what JThunder meant instead of deciding it for him. Weighing in late here… I happen to agree with the majority of the respondents here, who do not regard either “hillybilly” or “redneck” as any sort of epithet. In fact, I just flew back from southern Washington state, where I spent the weekend with a family (my _adoptive_ family)–a plan that proudly refers to themselves as rednecks. Other posters have also described hillbillies who proudly identify themselves as such. As **fruitbat** said, what we have here is a severe case of offense by proxy. Lighten up. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/89 "2005-08-09T20:46:39Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Contrapuntal** , why do you think I have not received a warning for my use of the n-word in this thread? > > Daniel Because you haven’t called anyone a nigger. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/90 "2005-08-09T20:49:00Z")
Ah, so it’s the context in which the word is used, not simple use of the word, that determines whether it’s hate speech? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/91 "2005-08-09T20:49:01Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > As **fruitbat** said, what we have here is a severe case of offense by proxy. Lighten up. Yeah, we get it. If it doesn’t offend **you** , \*\*we \*\* need to lighten up. The universe does not rotate around your pivot foot. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/92 "2005-08-09T20:51:43Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Yeah, we get it. If it doesn’t offend **you** , \*\*we \*\* need to lighten up. The universe does not rotate around your pivot foot. As opposed to the fact that it offends _you_, and therefore, such terminology must never be used in a light-hearted manner? As I said, I just spend the entire weekend with my adoptive redneck family. They embrace the term, and do so proudly. Shall I inform them that they’ve been misguided all along, and must now react with horror and revulsion whenever someone describes them as such? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/93 "2005-08-09T20:52:23Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Yeah, we get it. If it doesn’t offend **you** , \*\*we \*\* need to lighten up. Have you ever been described as a redneck, **Contrapuntal**? What about as a hillbilly? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/94 "2005-08-09T20:57:20Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > This is my stance. I abhor\*\* all \*\* words or phrases that reduce humans to stereotypical labels. I abhor **all** words or phrases that place some humans beneath other humans _as a group_. Such words are hateful, demeaning, and vile. They have tremendous capacity to wound. ALL phases? Surfer boy, Hippy, Yuppie, Sleepy, Dopey, trust me, any phase can be used to hurt, if that’s the intention of the speaker. So if I say Hippie white boy, which word do you abhor? What about Bosco Brown, which word? Let’s not even get started on the “C” word…and of course my personal favorite tractor boy. > [@](#): > > The context which Mr. Pryor referred to was it’s use _as a pejorative_. IIRC, he did not vow never to use the word again, only never to \*call \* someone a nigger. Sorry but too many cites have different quotes. If you have one direct from Mr. Pryor I’ll take it. > [@](#): > > Trust me. All of this is in your head. Neither at any time nor any place have I “reduc[ed] him to that one declaration.” I disagree, part of Richard Pryor’s legacy was his take on race and using terms that were taboo…by only mentioning the declaration (I’ve read that he was more concerned with white people feeling comfortable saying the word, without understanding the difference between using it as a slur as opposed to "familar’ term) without the rational behind the decision, it in my opinion waters down the man. > [@](#): > > Oh please. My objection to nigger, white trash, hillbilly, et.al., are from is to their use as a pejorative, not as a word devoid of malice. In post #67 you agreed that nigger in ANY context was unacceptable. If you wish to modify that, fine; but keep your pleases to yourself. > [@](#): > > Well, you said rapper, not rap music, and I wasn’t questioning the race of the stereotypical rapper, but let’s look at some figures… > I’d say rap’s doin’ all right. Those are some pretty impressive sales figures for a genre with a ‘negative connotation.’ Why are you playing obtuse? You know that sales and being considered a ‘positive’ or desireable influence are not the same thing. > [@](#): > > Not Immune to Racial Prejudice > > In 1956, Cole was given his own television show on NBC-TV. Despite good ratings, the program failed to find a sponsor and left the air after a year. Cole’s being African American was seen as the primary cause for the lack of advertising interest. Sponsoring a program that drew a large, if by no means exclusively, black audience was seen as a waste of money by advertisers. Racial incidents cropped up from time to time during Cole’s starring career. When he and his wife bought a house in the exclusive Hancock Park section of Los Angeles in 1949, neighbors formed an association to prevent them from moving in. In 1956, at the height of his fame, Cole was attacked by a group of white men while performing in Birmingham, Alabama. [Nat](http://www.gale.com/free_resources/bhm/bio/cole_n.htm) I guess Nat King Cole, just needed to sell more LPs. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/95 "2005-08-09T20:57:22Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Ah, so it’s the context in which the word is used, not simple use of the word, that determines whether it’s hate speech? > > Daniel Do me a favor. In the future, read my posts before you ask me these questions. I’ve already addressed them both. This really isn’t a thread about hate speech, but I’ll play along. At the SDMB, it is the use of the word \*as a pejorative \* that renders it hate speech. You would be hard pressed to find me asserting otherwise. It is a word that, here, allows no other interpretation when used as a pejorative. If you want to call that ‘context’, then OK, in that sense, context determines meaning. It is a distinction without a difference, really. To my knowledge, no one has suggested an _absolute_ ban on any word or phrase. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/96 "2005-08-09T21:01:10Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Yeah, we get it. If it doesn’t offend **you** , \*\*we \*\* need to lighten up. The universe does not rotate around your pivot foot. Would you care to provide a list of words that cause you offense so I don’t inadvertantly wound your delicate sensibilities? The point is that these terms are not patently offensive and have no history of oppression that makes them universally hurtful. If we had to avoid the possibility of offending anyone this place would get awfully boring very quickly. Which brings to mind a question. Is there any one here who feels oppressed or degraded because they have been called a redneck or a hillbilly? I would be curious to hear their accounts, who knows I might even change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/97 "2005-08-09T21:02:25Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You are aware that there are words deemed offensive on the SDMB no matter who says them, or with what intent, are you not? > [@](#): > > Do me a favor. In the future, read my posts before you ask me these questions. > … > At the SDMB, it is the use of the word as a pejorative that renders it hate speech. You would be hard pressed to find me asserting otherwise. I don’t think it’d be so hard at all, actually. But if you’re willing to say that it’s the use of the word as a pejorative that renders it hate speech, then we’re well on our way to agreement, as long as you recognize that that’s a necessary but not sufficient part of hate speech. I say that “hillbilly” and “redneck” are often used in a non-pejorative sense. In fact, they’re used so often in that non-pejorative sense that it’d be silly to put them in a category with words that are used primarily in a pejorative sense. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/98 "2005-08-09T21:15:41Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I say that “hillbilly” and “redneck” are often used in a non-pejorative sense. In fact, they’re used so often in that non-pejorative sense that it’d be silly to put them in a category with words that are used primarily in a pejorative sense. As evidence of this, just look at the thread to which **LHoD** was objecting. Two of the participants proclaimed themselves to be rednecks, and another identified herself as a “hillbilly queen.” Gosh. Have they been insulting themselves all along, without realizing it? Hey, maybe we should tell Jeff Foxworthy that he needs to stop calling himself a redneck. How does he expect to sell any of his comedy CDs if he keeps throwing that vicious insult around? There’s no laughing at his material, nosiree! ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/99 "2005-08-09T21:17:43Z")
Sorry. I meant the thread to which **hyperelastic** was objecting, not **LHoD**. (Slaps own forehead violently.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/100 "2005-08-09T21:27:30Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Sorry. I meant the thread to which **hyperelastic** was objecting, not **LHoD**. (Slaps own forehead violently.) Man–I was all getting ready to do some objecting, too! 😃 Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=6)