# Enough With The Epithets, JThunder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231 "2005-08-09T03:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/121 "2005-08-10T14:05:03Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Right, I say ALL Hippies are worthless. Since most Hippies are white, I am placing one group of humans beneath the rest, right? By calling ALL hippies worthless, I’ve basically called ALL white people worthless, since if you ask 1000 people to describe a hippie, 999 would describe a white person. Isn’t that how it works? Sorry I forgot to reply to this. I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. When I said 999 out of 1000 think of ‘hillbilly’ as white, I was not saying that by extension ‘hillbilly’ refers to all white people, only that it refers to white people almost exclusively. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/122 "2005-08-10T14:42:02Z")
I’m not really interested in the SDMB adding “white trash” or whatnot to its list of forbidden pejoratives. I think they should get rid of the hate speech rule. However, as long as there is such a list, and “white trash” isn’t on it, the implication is that “white trash” is OK but “nigger” isn’t, which is ridiculous. Therefore, I will respond the only way I can, which is to point out that “white trash” and the like are hate speech and permitting them while not permitting “nigger” is a discriminatory, illiberal and indefensible policy. I’ll also be generous and creative in characterizing the mentality of posters who use these terms. I’ll do it every time I see hate speech in any thread, and y’all will just have to put up with it or get rid of me. It’s evidently OK for people to refer to third parties (neighbors, someone you saw on TV, etc.) as “white trash”. Fortunately, I’ve never seen a poster directly call another poster “white trash” except in an ironic context. I’m curious as to whether the mods would tolerate this. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > This is where the argument breaks down for me. If their being white has nothing to do with it, why bring it up? How far do you think you would get calling a black Doper “a piece of black trash?” The way the haters try to get around it is to argue that “white trash” is really a class-based insult, not a race-based one. You see it all through these threads. They think it’s fun to insult people for being poor. This is the level of civilized broad-mindedness we are dealing with here. > [@Jackmanii](#): > > For anyone who hasn’t found it yet, there are some really good white trash-style recipes on the Southern Culture On The Skids website. > > A sampling: > > POSSUM AND CHESTNUTS… Someone entertain me with an argument for this being any more acceptable than posting: Check it out! [Delicious nigger-style recipes](http://www.chitterlings.com/chitterling.html)! ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/123 "2005-08-10T14:44:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Since these are terms used by white people to describe other white people, it seems unlikely to me that those using these terms hate white people. I hear the word “nigger” used most often by black people when speaking to, or about other black people (yes, even down here in TX). Does that mean I can walk up to a black person and use the word “nigger” without it being racist? Or that I, as a white man, can start a reply here on the dope with the words, “Nigger my nigger,…” since I would not be intending it in an offensive manner? I grew up in rural Alabama and the terms “redneck”, “white trash”, “hillbilly”, or “dirt leg” were never used in a humorous or comical way. Everyone I know from back home would consider all of those fighting words. And I have never heard anyone except for a white person called any of those things. Would it be acceptable when speaking of a low income, urban black woman to use the terms “crack whore”, or “welfare sucker”, or “charity sponge” or any of the other insulting terms that are, unfortunately, commonly associated with lower income, urban black people? There is nothing in the terms that specifically addresses the race of the person, so it should be acceptable since I would be referencing their class or income rather than their race. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/124 "2005-08-10T15:13:31Z")
FWIW, I was born in West Virginia, and lived there until moving here (Baltimore/Washington) at 26. The only times I remember anyone using the words ‘hillbilly’ or ‘redneck’ were expressions of camaraderie (“You’re from WV? Cool, I’m from Kentucky – another hillbilly!”). I was occasionally the butt of jokes, but they tended to focus on WV specifically (“You’re from WV? Are those your first shoes?”) ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/125 "2005-08-10T15:17:37Z")
My final words on this topic (these topics as it has become) are that those people who insist that my being offended (and others who share my feelings being offended) is unwarranted or uncalled for, and who continue to use these terms as if they’re perfectly okay descriptives of certain segments of society – regardless of their racist status or lack thereof – are no longer worthy of my respect. By flaunting their ignorance they’ve ruined their chances of being taken seriously by me, no matter what subject they wish to discuss or debate. There are too many people (who have been labelled by these terms) that I know personally, and even have in my own ancestry, for me to allow their denigration to go unrecognized. And I have challenged such denigration as far as I have patience and interest in doing. As far as I’m personally concerned, continue to use the terms we’ve been discussing here at your own peril. You’re just showing your ignorance – the “fighting” of which I have heard is one of the reasons this place exists. But if you insist that calling people by these epithets is acceptable, your ignorance is something I have no further interest in fighting. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/126 "2005-08-10T15:28:35Z")
Guys, do you really want to debate ‘white trash’ as hate speech again? Then go to the thread we spent pages on that topic. > **[Point of Order-Hate Speech in the Pit](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=324130)** > > Since “white trash” obviously is not hate speech cite cite I propose that the following terms are equally acceptable. Yellow Peril. Blue-gum. Darky. Redskin. Drunken Indian. Slope. Slant-eye. Jap trick. et. al. It might be educational. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/127 "2005-08-10T15:34:20Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Guys, do you really want to debate ‘white trash’ as hate speech again? > > Then go to the thread we spent pages on that topic. > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=324130](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=324130) > It might be educational. **E** , where ya been buddy? Where’s **Lute**? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/128 "2005-08-10T15:36:29Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > I hear the word “nigger” used most often by black people when speaking to, or about other black people (yes, even down here in TX). Does that mean I can walk up to a black person and use the word “nigger” without it being racist? Or that I, as a white man, can start a reply here on the dope with the words, “Nigger my nigger,…” since I would not be intending it in an offensive manner? Are you claiming that if one black person refers to his black friend as “my nigger,” that he is being racist? > [@](#): > > Would it be acceptable when speaking of a low income, urban black woman to use the terms “crack whore”, or “welfare sucker”, or “charity sponge” or any of the other insulting terms that are, unfortunately, commonly associated with lower income, urban black people? There is nothing in the terms that specifically addresses the race of the person, so it should be acceptable since I would be referencing their class or income rather than their race. Acceptable? Probably not. It is, after all, insulting. Is it necessarily racist? No. Is it classist? Absolutely. Is being classist better than being racist? Not really. I have no problem with people being insulted by these terms. It’s just the idea that the terms are racist which is patently ridiculous. You want to get your panties in a bunch over 'em, go ahead. Just do it for the right reason. > [@Zeldar](#): > > My final words on this topic (these topics as it has become) are that those people who insist that my being offended (and others who share my feelings being offended) is unwarranted or uncalled for, and who continue to use these terms as if they’re perfectly okay descriptives of certain segments of society – regardless of their racist status or lack thereof – are no longer worthy of my respect. By flaunting their ignorance they’ve ruined their chances of being taken seriously by me, no matter what subject they wish to discuss or debate. They’re heartbroken to hear that, I am sure. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/129 "2005-08-10T15:48:32Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > But if you insist that calling people by these epithets is acceptable, your ignorance is something I have no further interest in fighting. Since I live in Appalachia and am a hilljack from a family of hilljacks, am I still allowed to call myself one? And since we have Backwoods Fests and Moonshine Fests and Hillbilly Fests and the like, am I still allowed to go, or am I just being ignorant? I find this thread kinda funny. The non-hillbillies are trying to turn our terms for ourselves into insults. That’s what’s insulting. I belong to a culture that you’ve decided is unacceptable and degrading. You’ve determined that I should be embarrassed by what I am, to the point where I can’t even give it a label. At first I was amused. Now I’m just pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/130 "2005-08-10T15:48:33Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > My final words on this topic (these topics as it has become) are that those people who insist that my being offended (and others who share my feelings being offended) is unwarranted or uncalled for, and who continue to use these terms as if they’re perfectly okay descriptives of certain segments of society – regardless of their racist status or lack thereof – are no longer worthy of my respect. By flaunting their ignorance they’ve ruined their chances of being taken seriously by me, no matter what subject they wish to discuss or debate. > > There are too many people (who have been labelled by these terms) that I know personally, and even have in my own ancestry, for me to allow their denigration to go unrecognized. And I have challenged such denigration as far as I have patience and interest in doing. > > As far as I’m personally concerned, continue to use the terms we’ve been discussing here at your own peril. You’re just showing your ignorance – the “fighting” of which I have heard is one of the reasons this place exists. > > But if you insist that calling people by these epithets is acceptable, your ignorance is something I have no further interest in fighting. You forgot to add, “As God is my witness, I’ll never be hungry again!” ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/131 "2005-08-10T16:00:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Cprporate America disagrees with you. > [cite](http://www.alltel.com/lilflip/) > [cite](http://www.detnews.com/2003/entertainment/0304/25/c01-146778.htm) > If AT&T, Alltell, KMart, Visa, Reebok, and Chevro-fucking-lay (Heartbeat of America; As American as Apple Pie)are using rappers as pitchmen I’d say their connotations just jumped into the positive with all four feet. You’re gonna have to get up offa that ‘negative image’ bullshit, **holmes**. You can’t be this naive. One more time. There is a difference between using Rap artists to sell “hip” things to people and society believing that Rap music and artists are productive and valuable members of society and something worth emulating. > [@](#): > > Innis told The ENQUIRER, Simmons – often criticized himself for promoting violent ghetto culture and gangster rap – is no one to bash Cosby. > > “Simmons is one of the worst,” he said. "Simmons came from the middle class and he tends to glorify the worst of those of us who are mired in poverty. And he makes a fortune on it! > > “People like Simmons in the entertainment industry are making a mint by promoting these very same negative values to the black community and the wider community as well.” > [@](#): > > For those who insist that even the invisible structures of society reinforce racism, the burden of proof should rest with them to explain just why hip-hop’s bloody and sexist lyrics and videos and the criminal behavior of many rappers wouldn’t have a powerfully negative effect upon whites’ conception of black people. > **[How Hip-Hop Holds Blacks Back](https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html)** > > Violence, misogyny, and lawlessness are nothing to sing about. Of course all Rap isn’t Gangster Rap, and Hip Hop and Rap aren’t the same thing, however the problem is most people don’t know the differnence and that’s the problem. They believe what they see and hear. > [@](#): > > Listen, dumbass. 50 years ago a black heart surgeon couldn’t get a room in the crummiest motel in Birmingham. Are you suggesting that heart surgeons had a negative image? Or was it just pianists/vocalists? Don’t be dragging any 50 year old bullshit into a discussion about **accomodations for rappers** , for Christ’s sake. Ever watch MTV? I’d say they’re living pretty good. Dumbass. You are funny, really. It must be me, clearly I’m not expressing myself well. So I’ll try again. What I was trying to show you with Nat King Cole, was that his success didn’t protect him from how society viewed and treated African-Americans. What I am suggesting is not that surgeons or musicians had a negative image, but that African-Americans REGARDLESS of their skills, education and abilities had a negative image and were all treated the same; even if they sold millions of LPs. This isn’t an era specific problem, clearly the things that affected Nat King Cole aren’t the same that affect 50¢, HOWEVER the end results are the same, fame and popularity doesn’t equal being considered a positive role model. You keep pointing to money and fame as the litmus test for social acceptance. You point to houses, and TV shows and shoe deals, all that means is that Corporate America feels that Rap and it’s artists can generate money; not that they consider them positive role models. What I’m trying to point out within a historical context, is that financial success and popularity doesn’t mean acceptance. If it did then Nat King Cole would’ve been treated better; regardless of the time in which he lived. I could point to Nat King Cole’s money, his home, his popularity and say, “See he’s living pretty good.” but he would still be viewed with a negative connotation. Get it now? Maybe it’s me, but I thought it made sense the first time around. ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/132 "2005-08-10T16:02:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Are you claiming that if one black person refers to his black friend as “my nigger,” that he is being racist? No. Of course not. Sorry if I was unclear. What I was working towards was that just because one person of a group decides it is ok to use a term to describe that same group, it is not ok for someone outside that group to do the same. Appearantly black people can use the word “nigger” in any manner they wish while I, being outside of that group, am not able to do that. I imagine that the immediate reaction to my use of the word would be unfavorable and considered racist, regardless of how I was using the word (outside of a discussion of the word itself). I cannot really see a difference between that and someone from the north calling me a redneck. I don’t care for it when locals do it, let alone when someone outside of the referenced group does it (southerners). > [@Miller](#): > > Acceptable? Probably not. It is, after all, insulting. Is it necessarily racist? No. Is it classist? Absolutely. Is being classist better than being racist? Not really. I have no problem with people being insulted by these terms. It’s just the idea that the terms are racist which is patently ridiculous. You want to get your panties in a bunch over 'em, go ahead. Just do it for the right reason. My “panties” aren’t in a bunch over anything. I am just trying to determine when it is ok to look down my nose at someone and when it isn’t. You seem to have made it clear that you don’t favor doing it at anytime. Does a term have to be racist before it is considered “hate speech”? No. Why would these terms not be considered “hate speech” if they are labeling a group of people in an unfavorable way? ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/133 "2005-08-10T16:03:49Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Since I live in Appalachia and am a hilljack from a family of hilljacks, am I still allowed to call myself one? And since we have Backwoods Fests and Moonshine Fests and Hillbilly Fests and the like, am I still allowed to go, or am I just being ignorant? > > I find this thread kinda funny. The non-hillbillies are trying to turn our terms for ourselves into insults. That’s what’s insulting. I belong to a culture that you’ve decided is unacceptable and degrading. You’ve determined that I should be embarrassed by what I am, to the point where I can’t even give it a label. > > At first I was amused. Now I’m just pissed off. No kidding, both my grandparents were coal miners from West Virginia fer chrissakes. It doesn’t get much more hillbily than that. Now I sound like some rapper trying to establish his ‘street cred’. As for losing the respect of our resident chief pantywaist **Zeldar** words cannot express the pain I am feeling. No matter how you try to turn redneck and hillbilly into despicable racist terms you will fail. They are part of the American lexicon now and have meanings that are far less pernicious than you would assign to them. Of course they can be insulting or used as an insult, as can many other words. By the way I noticed you never took on the challenge of explaining the difference between yuppie and redneck for me. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/134 "2005-08-10T16:05:03Z")
I think that the words of **jsgoddess** bear repeating here. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I find this thread kinda funny. The non-hillbillies are trying to turn our terms for ourselves into insults. That’s what’s insulting. I belong to a culture that you’ve decided is unacceptable and degrading. You’ve determined that I should be embarrassed by what I am, to the point where I can’t even give it a label. > > At first I was amused. Now I’m just pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/135 "2005-08-10T16:19:31Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > No. Of course not. Sorry if I was unclear. > > What I was working towards was that just because one person of a group decides it is ok to use a term to describe that same group, it is not ok for someone outside that group to do the same. Appearantly black people can use the word “nigger” in any manner they wish while I, being outside of that group, am not able to do that. I imagine that the immediate reaction to my use of the word would be unfavorable and considered racist, regardless of how I was using the word (outside of a discussion of the word itself). I cannot really see a difference between that and someone from the north calling me a redneck. I don’t care for it when locals do it, let alone when someone outside of the referenced group does it (southerners). Yeah, I agree with that. My only point in this thread is that terms like redneck and hillbilly and white trash aren’t racist because they were coined by one segment of white people to describe another segment of white people. > [@](#): > > My “panties” aren’t in a bunch over anything. I am just trying to determine when it is ok to look down my nose at someone and when it isn’t. You seem to have made it clear that you don’t favor doing it at anytime. Oh, I favor doing it all the time. I just think there are better reasons for looking down on people than economic circumstances. > [@](#): > > Does a term have to be racist before it is considered “hate speech”? No. Why would these terms not be considered “hate speech” if they are labeling a group of people in an unfavorable way? Well, where do you want to draw the line on “labeling a group of people in an unfavorable way?” “Yuppie” has a negative connotation to a lot of people. So does “hippie,” for that matter. Are those terms hate speech? What about “Repugnican” or “Dumbocrat?” I don’t think this is an area where you can draw hard and fast lines like that. It’s all way too context sensitive, and apparently there’s not even any sort of consensus among self-described hillbillies and rednecks about wether these terms are insulting, or in what measure. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/136 "2005-08-10T16:29:16Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Dumbass. You are funny, really. It must be me, clearly I’m not expressing myself well. So I’ll try again. > > What I was trying to show you with Nat King Cole, was that his success didn’t protect him from how society viewed and treated African-Americans. What I am suggesting is not that surgeons or musicians had a negative image, but that African-Americans REGARDLESS of their skills, education and abilities had a negative image and were all treated the same; even if they sold millions of LPs. > > This isn’t an era specific problem, clearly the things that affected Nat King Cole aren’t the same that affect 50¢, HOWEVER the end results are the same, fame and popularity doesn’t equal being considered a positive role model. > > You keep pointing to money and fame as the litmus test for social acceptance. You point to houses, and TV shows and shoe deals, all that means is that Corporate America feels that Rap and it’s artists can generate money; not that they consider them positive role models. > > What I’m trying to point out within a historical context, is that financial success and popularity doesn’t mean acceptance. If it did then Nat King Cole would’ve been treated better; regardless of the time in which he lived. I could point to Nat King Cole’s money, his home, his popularity and say, “See he’s living pretty good.” but he would still be viewed with a negative connotation. > > Get it now? Maybe it’s me, but I thought it made sense the first time around. Once again you seem to be moving the target on me. Your original position is that “rappers have a negative connotation.” Now it is “rappers are not positive role models.” Not quite the same thing. However, I truly believe that the above companies I mentioned, some of them among the most powerful in the country, would not employ rappers as spokespeople if they carried a negative connotation. Look at Kobe Bryant. In the public eye, he was as squeaky clean as you can get, but after he was accused of rape his endorsements dried up. The golfer John Daly, the white, good old boy everyman, lost his Calloway deal when his alcoholism relapsed. Bad press equals death to an advertiser. I may not understand what you mean by negative connotation, but I assure you that each of the deals I linked to came about only after intense investigation, focus groups, preliminary ad campaigns, and the like convinced the advertisers that potential cusomers would view their products in the best possible light as a result of their associations with the endorsers. That’s how advertising works. You juxtapose the product with an image that triggers a positive response. As to Nat King Cole. I still don’t get it. We are not talking about 50 years ago. We are talking about today. 50 years ago Jim Crow laws were in effect. Schools were segregated. There were no black Hollywood actors in leading roles. No blacks in leading roles on TV. Precious few black legislators, judges, professors. Unless you are arguing that the country still views blacks as it did 50 years ago, and that rappers are viewed negatively because they are black and for no other reason, your reasoning escapes me. I point to record sales and advertising deals as evidence that rappers are mainstream now. Nat King Cole may have been mainstream then in terms of record sales, but you sure as hell did not see him in any mainstream ad campaigns. He was oppressed then because \*\*all \*\* blacks were oppressed. Is it your assertion that similar conditions exist today? And, to be clear, when I bring up evidence to support my claims that is not the same thing as applying a litmus test. You seem to have the habit, at least where I am concerned, of assigning extreme positions to me that I have never taken. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/137 "2005-08-10T16:43:20Z")
I give up. It must be me, clearly I am unable to convey my thoughts and to save the hamsters, I’m going to bail. **Contrapuntal** thanks for the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/138 "2005-08-10T16:48:21Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > I give up. It must be me, clearly I am unable to convey my thoughts and to save the hamsters, I’m going to bail. > > **Contrapuntal** thanks for the discussion. Yeah, I guess we just couldn’t reach an understanding. You’re welcome, and thanks to you as well. ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/139 "2005-08-10T16:53:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, I agree with that. My only point in this thread is that terms like redneck and hillbilly and white trash aren’t racist because they were coined by one segment of white people to describe another segment of white people. > > Oh, I favor doing it all the time. I just think there are better reasons for looking down on people than economic circumstances. > > Well, where do you want to draw the line on “labeling a group of people in an unfavorable way?” “Yuppie” has a negative connotation to a lot of people. So does “hippie,” for that matter. Are those terms hate speech? What about “Repugnican” or “Dumbocrat?” I don’t think this is an area where you can draw hard and fast lines like that. It’s all way too context sensitive, and apparently there’s not even any sort of consensus among self-described hillbillies and rednecks about wether these terms are insulting, or in what measure. I can get behind all of that. For the record, the only time it bothers me is when it is used to reference a large group of people. If someone starts a pit thread about one particular idiot they read about in the newspaper who performed an act that could be described as a redneck manuever and proceeds to call that person a redneck or white trash, then I don’t care. But when someone starts a pit thread and states or implies that the state of Texas, or the whole state of Alabama, or the south in general is chock full of ignorant rednecks, then it upsets me. Not a whole shit pot full I can do about it, but it upsets me nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/140 "2005-08-10T17:16:14Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > **E** , where ya been buddy? Where’s **Lute**? Not responsive to issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=8)