# Enough With The Epithets, JThunder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231 "2005-08-09T03:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/141 "2005-08-10T17:21:13Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Not responsive to issue. OK. Is this a refusal of my awkward olive branch? If so, I shan’t bother you again (or go hungry, for that matter, **Woody**.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/142 "2005-08-10T18:43:31Z")
Can we make _nouveau riche_ be treated as hate speech as well? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/143 "2005-08-10T18:53:06Z")
No refusal, just didn’t want to get hijacked into that discussion or any tangents. Also, a bit busy at work. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/144 "2005-08-11T03:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, where do you want to draw the line on “labeling a group of people in an unfavorable way?” “Yuppie” has a negative connotation to a lot of people. So does “hippie,” for that matter. Are those terms hate speech? What about “Repugnican” or “Dumbocrat?” I don’t think this is an area where you can draw hard and fast lines like that. Yes, usually, yes, and yes, respectively. Now, even though I consider them hate terms, as they are used disparagingly the vast majority of the time – even moreso than Nigg+, – should they be disallowed on the SDMB? Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Batsinma\_Belfry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@Batsinma\_Belfry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batsinma_Belfry)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/145 "2005-08-11T03:52:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I find this thread kinda funny. The non-hillbillies are trying to turn our terms for ourselves into insults. That’s what’s insulting. I belong to a culture that you’ve decided is unacceptable and degrading. You’ve determined that I should be embarrassed by what I am, to the point where I can’t even give it a label. > > At first I was amused. Now I’m just pissed off. Same here, except I’m not really amused or pissed off. To me, “hillbilly” is no more derogatory than “tarheel”, or “hoosier”. It refers to people from a specific location. Whereas, “white trash” and “redneck”, are derogatory terms referring to the way people live. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/146 "2005-08-11T05:46:13Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Apparently, some people disagree with you. The [Racial Slur Database](http://www.rsdb.org/) says, “Redneck, Hick and Hillbilly are all used as derogatory terms for whites.” What a marvelous age we live in. And not just because I bet I never would have encountered 90% of those terms if someone hadn’t catalogued them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/147 "2005-08-11T07:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > **jsgoddess** : Since I live in Appalachia and am a hilljack from a family of hilljacks, am I still allowed to call myself one? And since we have Backwoods Fests and Moonshine Fests and Hillbilly Fests and the like, am I still allowed to go, or am I just being ignorant? Celebrate yourself in anyway that you like, and more power to you! But _I_ will be amused if you move the Appalachian Mountains to Ohio. The highest point in Ohio is in _Western_ Ohio – [Campbell Hill](http://homeschooling.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=homeschooling&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americasroof.com%2Foh.html), and it’s only 1, 550 feet above sea level. > [@](#): > > **LHOD** : Zoe, do you really doubt that I could craft a definition of “dork” that would both correspond to many folks’ usage of the term and be more offensive than Woody’s definition of “hillybilly”? No, your point is noted. I guess one of the differences is that most of the words that you listed are labels used against individuals. Use of the word _dork_ or _asshole_ or _motherfucker_ doesn’t encourage stereotyping and promote ignorance about a _group_ of people. And that’s what I’m more sensitive to. I am in agreement with you that the hillfolk are generally pleasant people to know and spend time with. That’s not what I’m objecting to at all. It’s not an insult to be grouped in with these people. It _is_ insulting to reduce them to cartoonish versions of who they really are, ridicule their culture and customs, laugh at their poverty, make unfounded assumptions about their intelligence, attribute characteristics to them that they don’t have and then assume that most people who live within five hundred miles of them have those same characteristics. Not only is it insulting, but it also promotes ignorance. (Personal note to _LHOD_: The next time you have a few minutes on your hands, take the short walk from the Wolfe house to what used to be his father’s business for me. If you’ve never read _Look Homeward, Angel_, maybe you would find something in it. I am particularly fond of Asheville.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/148 "2005-08-11T12:00:22Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > It _is_ insulting to reduce them to cartoonish versions of who they really are, ridicule their culture and customs, laugh at their poverty, make unfounded assumptions about their intelligence, attribute characteristics to them that they don’t have and then assume that most people who live within five hundred miles of them have those same characteristics. > > Not only is it insulting, but it also promotes ignorance. I absolutely agree. I think our disagreement, if we have one, is whether the words “hillbilly,” “redneck,” and “white trash” are used exclusively, or even primarily, to contribute to this sort of cartoonish caricature. I tend to hear the words used to jokingly describe oneself; when they’re used as pejoratives, I tend to hear them used to describe behaviors (e.g., someone is called a redneck because they fly the Confederate flag or because they confine hunting dogs to tiny, cramped enclosures, not because they live in a ramshackle house). I strongly object to characterizing someone pejoratively for their economic background. I don’t object to a pejorative characterization based on a person’s behavior. > [@](#): > > (Personal note to _LHOD_: The next time you have a few minutes on your hands, take the short walk from the Wolfe house to what used to be his father’s business for me. If you’ve never read _Look Homeward, Angel_, maybe you would find something in it. I am particularly fond of Asheville.) Where’s his father’s business? I pass by the Wolfe house a couple times a month–it’s just been rebuilt after a disastrous fire several years ago–but I didn’t know his father had a business in town. And I keep meaning to read _Look Homeward Angel_, but haven’t gotten to it yet. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/149 "2005-08-11T12:27:42Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Celebrate yourself in anyway that you like, and more power to you! But _I_ will be amused if you move the Appalachian Mountains to Ohio. The highest point in Ohio is in _Western_ Ohio – [Campbell Hill](http://homeschooling.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=homeschooling&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americasroof.com%2Foh.html), and it’s only 1, 550 feet above sea level. Just like the other assholes in this thread, you can be amused by whatever the fuck you like. But since your ignorance is profound, how about a few links? [http://www.oache.org/appfacts.html](http://www.oache.org/appfacts.html) [http://www.appalachianohio.org/](http://www.appalachianohio.org/) [http://www.appalachianohio.com/](http://www.appalachianohio.com/) [http://www.odod.ohio.gov/goa/ARC4ProgramAreas.htm](http://www.odod.ohio.gov/goa/ARC4ProgramAreas.htm) [http://www.odod.ohio.gov/goa/](http://www.odod.ohio.gov/goa/) [http://www.oache.org/counties.htm](http://www.oache.org/counties.htm) I know where the fuck I live. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/150 "2005-08-11T12:33:26Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Celebrate yourself in anyway that you like, and more power to you! But _I_ will be amused if you move the Appalachian Mountains to Ohio. The highest point in Ohio is in _Western_ Ohio – [Campbell Hill](http://homeschooling.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=homeschooling&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americasroof.com%2Foh.html), and it’s only 1, 550 feet above sea level. Zoe, I’m not sure where you are, but the southern and southeastern parts of Ohio are part of Appalachia. From the Appalachian Regional Commission list of counties in Appalachia: Ohio: Adams, Athens, Belmont, Brown, Carroll, Clermont, Columbiana, Coshocton, Gallia, Guernsey, Harrison, Highland, Hocking, Holmes, Jackson, Jefferson, Lawrence, Meigs, Monroe, Morgan, Muskingum, Noble, Perry, Pike, Ross, Scioto, Tuscarawas, Vinton, and Washington. [link](http://www.arc.gov/index.do?nodeId=27). Tim among the hillbillies in Chillicothe (Ross County) Ohio ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/151 "2005-08-11T19:36:34Z")
**Left Hand of Dorkness** , Thomas Wolfe’s father had a business that I believe was at the Southeastern end of the “square.” In the book his father carved monuments, but I can’t remember if that was also true in real life. I think maybe so. It seems to me that there are tools of the trade or markers of some sort on the sidewalk in front of the bulding. I remember it as _almost_ a straight walk from the house. Before you begin the book, stop by the house and get a copy of _The Lost World of Thomas Wolfe_ for about six bucks. Since _Look Homeward Angel_ is _very_ autobiographical, this book is mostly a corresponding photo book to illustrate the real life parallels. I am thrilled to hear that they have rebult the house! The interior had been gutted the last time I was there. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/152 "2005-08-11T20:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > **jsgoddess** : Just like the other assholes in this thread, you can be amused by whatever the fuck you like. Oh, I have so been waiting for your permission. But I’ve never thought of you as an asshole. > [@](#): > > But since your ignorance is profound, how about a few links? Your links, and Tim’s source, indicate that the Southeastern part of your state is considered part of Appalachia – not that the Apalachian Mountains are a feature of the Ohio landscape. _But if you insist…_ > [@](#): > > I know where the fuck I live. Hey. It’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/153 "2005-08-11T20:56:06Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Oh, I have so been waiting for your permission. But I’ve never thought of you as an asshole. I didn’t think you were one either until you condescended so ignorantly in this thread. I honestly don’t know what your deal is. > [@Zoe](#): > > Your links, and Tim’s source, indicate that the Southeastern part of your state is considered part of Appalachia – not that the Apalachian Mountains are a feature of the Ohio landscape. You quarreled when I said I lived in Appalachia. Obviously, you were mistaken about the definition of Appalachia. This area is most often considered part of the Appalachian Mountains: > [@http://www.answers.com/topic/appalachian-mountains](#): > > In addition to the true folded mountains, known as the ridge and valley province, the area of dissected plateau to the north and west of the mountains is usually grouped with them. This includes the Catskill Mountains of southeastern New York, and the Allegheny Plateau of southwestern New York, western Pennsylvania, eastern Ohio and northern West Virginia. The plateau does not change character but changes name to the Cumberland Plateau in southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, western Virginia, eastern Tennessee. > > The dissected plateau area is popularly called mountains, especially in eastern Kentucky and West Virginia, and while the ridges are not high, the terrain is extremely rugged. In Ohio and New York, some of the plateau has been glaciated, which has rounded off the sharp ridges, and filled the valleys to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/154 "2005-08-12T11:57:10Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Your links, and Tim’s source, indicate that the Southeastern part of your state is considered part of Appalachia – not that the Apalachian Mountains are a feature of the Ohio landscape. _But if you insist…_. **Zoe** , have you ever crossed the Ohio River from West Virginia or Kentucky into Ohio? Maybe you have, but I suspect not. When you cross the river, you leave the foothills of the Appalachians and enter… more foothills of the Appalachians. I live about 50 miles from the Ohio River, in the Scioto River valley. The land here is mostly nice, flat fertile river valley land, but it is interspersed with these features. They stick up 200 to 500 feet above the surrounding land, they are too steep and rocky to farm, and geologists tells us they are a part of the geological formation known as the Appalachian Mountains. We call these mountains. They wouldn’t impress a Sherpa, but in the eastern US, they’re mountains. Appalachian Mountains, to be precise. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/155 "2005-08-12T12:11:11Z")
> [@Tim Staab](#): > > **Zoe** , have you ever crossed the Ohio River from West Virginia or Kentucky into Ohio? Maybe you have, but I suspect not. When you cross the river, you leave the foothills of the Appalachians and enter… more foothills of the Appalachians. I live about 50 miles from the Ohio River, in the Scioto River valley. The land here is mostly nice, flat fertile river valley land, but it is interspersed with these features. They stick up 200 to 500 feet above the surrounding land, they are too steep and rocky to farm, and geologists tells us they are a part of the geological formation known as the Appalachian Mountains. We call these mountains. They wouldn’t impress a Sherpa, but in the eastern US, they’re mountains. Appalachian Mountains, to be precise. I can understand this distinction of “geologically connected” versus “impressively connected” because the Appalachian chain runs out about 10-15 miles north of Montgomery, Alabama, where I lived for six years. I used to drive up to the last real “hill” in that chain and look into the distance at the Montgomery “skyline.” The hills in that section of Alabama are barely hills, much less mountains, but if you follow the landforms further northeast you eventually get into high country that continues to rise to the level of the Blue Ridge, the Smokies, and the obvious “mountains” in the Southern Highlands. It is very amusing to people in the West (I have to assume) to hear these mountains referred to as “mountains” when you have The Rockies and other chains in the West to compare to. I’ve seen cross section charts comparing East and West mountains and it’s obvious that the high ground in the East is puny by comparison. For someone who’s used to elevations in the hundreds of feet to go to where they’re in the thousands, the change is dramatic, but to go where they’re in the tens of thousands is staggering. It’s all relative. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/156 "2005-08-12T12:15:14Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > It is very amusing to people in the West (I have to assume) to hear these mountains referred to as “mountains” when you have The Rockies and other chains in the West to compare to. Bah. The Rockies are teenage upstart mountains. Our mountains are the oldest mountains in the world, and you want to mock them for being a little worn-down? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/157 "2005-08-12T12:21:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Bah. The Rockies are teenage upstart mountains. Our mountains are the oldest mountains in the world, and you want to mock them for being a little worn-down? > > Daniel What’s really cool – if you believe the Plate Techtonics version – is that The Appalachians were formed when we banged into Africa and Africa got the Atlas Mountains for its trouble. I’ve always thought the Sequatchie Valley needs to be explained better than the versions I’ve read about. Not that I’ve read all that much about it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/158 "2005-08-12T12:21:38Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > It is very amusing to people in the West (I have to assume) to hear these mountains referred to as “mountains” when you have The Rockies and other chains in the West to compare to. I’ve seen cross section charts comparing East and West mountains and it’s obvious that the high ground in the East is puny by comparison. Yep. My sister lives in Jackson Wyoming. Now those are mountains! Another sister lived in Las Cruces. Not as tall as the Tetons, but some pretty neat mountains, too. What’s funny is that my dad, who grew up here in the hills, absolutely loved heading north in Ohio to where the abrupt change comes and it’s all rolling farmland. There are a couple of spots on the freeways where you top a low rise and miles and miles of fields dotted with farm buildings stretch out before you. To him, that was the most beautiful sight in the world. To me? “It’s pretty flat, Dad.” ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231/159 "2005-08-13T04:58:24Z")
Lots of my friends are Kanaks and Mokes. :rolleyes: :dubious: 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-epithets-jthunder/316231.md?page=7)