# Enough with the "homophobe" bullshit, okay? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 28, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387 "2004-09-28T00:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/221 "2004-10-06T04:07:53Z")
> [@look!ninjas](#): > > The problem is that there are two groups of people who rape children - pedophiles and child molestors. Pedophiles are attracted sexually to children - they are not aroused or are only barely aroused by adults (either gender, doesn’t matter.) Child molesters are equally or primarily sexually attracted to adults, and can therefore be described as straight or gay. Since paedophilia is deemed to be an orientation, while molestation is more of a choice (as rape is a choice), does sentencing in the States reflects this difference? In other words, are paedophiles - assuming an expert witness confirms this condition in court - likely to get more lenient sentences than molestors? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/222 "2004-10-06T06:59:02Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Sigh. Can’t we agree that hating homosexuals due to traumatic childhood experiences is not correct, but still _rational_, as per the start of this mini-trainwreck? Mmmm… nope. Sorry, it’s still irrational. > [@](#): > > After all, it makes perfect sense to assume that males with a predilection towards other adult males are more likely to have a predilection towards male children as well. It’s rational. It also happens to be wrong. Technically, I’d say that’s _logical_. It’s also incorrect, because the logic is based on irrational base assumptions (“I was raped by a gay man, therefore all gay men are rapists”). > [@](#): > > This also brings up a topic related to the OP: namely, not just the definition of “homophobe”, but the definition of “homosexuality”. Unless you torture the definition to include only those that perceive themselves as homosexual, or to only include consensual, adult relationships, then the two acts of homosexual pedophilia and homosexual adult sex are remarkably similar. Can you elaborate on this? I have no idea what you’re trying to say. > [@](#): > > Similar enough that when I hear the term “homosexual acts”, I am just as likely to think of homosexual pedophilic acts as I am to think of pedophilic acts when I hear the term “sexual acts”. Not very much, mind you, but still, the point stands. I think this says more about you than it says about homosexuals or pedophiles. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/223 "2004-10-06T09:16:48Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > What does my being gay have to do with anything? You’re right - you’d still be a moron even if you were heterosexual. My bad. > [@](#): > > You did _not_ say “homosexuality is not paedophilia.” > [@Evil Death](#): > > Homosexuality and paedophilia are not interchangeable terms The average twelve-year-old could probably tell you that if two terms are not interchangeable, then they do not describe the same thing. \ Your failure of comprehension is complete, old man. \ > [@](#): > > That’s why I invited you to re-read her (?) post again. You say “of course the words ‘homosexual’ and ‘pedophile’ aren’t interchangeable,” which is exactly what **look!ninjas** said, and then go off arguing against some imaginary people who are apparently saying that there are absolutely no gay men who are pedophiles. [quote=look!ninjas\* Gay men do not rape little boys, full stop.[/quote] Imaginary. Right. > [@](#): > > Who exactly is the “moron” here? Well, according to you I posted to agree with the specifics of a post I hadn’t read, then went on to address some imaginary statement that the person I was replying to really had made. Who exactly is the moron here? Still you, I’m afraid. > [@](#): > > And as I pointed out, the reason you’re getting so much shit for it is because there are plenty of people who, unlike you, **do** believe that gay people are promiscuous, lustful, and indiscriminate in their sexual proclivities, just waiting for the opportunity to anally rape somebody, anybody, young or old, male or female. And it’s pretty goddamn annoying to have to be expected to defend against that. And if it weren’t for the sterling efforts of gay rights activists like Peter Tatchell and stupid, whiny loudmouths like you, maybe they wouldn’t have to do it so much. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/224 "2004-10-06T12:53:22Z")
**Evil Death**. your tenacity is outshone only by your idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/225 "2004-10-06T13:08:27Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > So . . . 87 incorrect usages somehow convinces you that it is, in contrary fact, correct? Wouldn’t the rarity of its use support the actual fact that it’s incorrect? No such thing as correct or incorrect in language use, as I’ve said before on this board. That’s why I called it “idiomatic.” Remove “ma” as appropriate. But, given that every use of the phrase I looked up was in the sense of belittling the Holocaust, I believe that’s the way the phrase is used. There’s a tautology for you. And as I said, it does nothing to advance **Evil Death’s** case, whatever that case may be. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/226 "2004-10-06T13:09:27Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Since paedophilia is deemed to be an orientation, while molestation is more of a choice (as rape is a choice), does sentencing in the States reflects this difference? In other words, are paedophiles - assuming an expert witness confirms this condition in court - likely to get more lenient sentences than molestors? It’s not a crime to be a pedophile. It’s a crime to engage in sexual acts with children, or to possess or produce child pornography, but the _desire_ to do these things (the “orientation”, as it were) is not in and of itself criminal. It’s not until pedophiles make the _choice_ to engage in _behavior_ that is illegal that they can get in trouble with the law. The law is not much concerned with what their motivations were, nor do I think they should they be. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/227 "2004-10-06T13:20:39Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No such thing as correct or incorrect in language use, as I’ve said before on this board. That’s why I called it “idiomatic.” Remove “ma” as appropriate. But, given that every use of the phrase I looked up was in the sense of belittling the Holocaust, I believe that’s the way the phrase is used. There’s a tautology for you. > > And as I said, it does nothing to advance **Evil Death’s** case, whatever that case may be. I remain unconvinced that “Holocaust apologist” is used in the sense that he claims rather than in the sense of being a Holocaust defender, but perhaps that uncommon phrase really has taken on a meaning other than the one I would infer from “Holocaust” plus “apologist”. I’m not sure this really matters though, as it’s not the phrase he originally used. He just said “apologist”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/228 "2004-10-06T13:23:05Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’m not sure this really matters though, as it’s not the phrase he originally used. He just said “apologist”. I’m sure it doesn’t really matter :). To the extent that the phrase is used as “one who denies the Holocaust,” it’s used idiomatically, in a manner that’s not related to the denotations of the phrase. You can’t backform from that a new definition for “apologist,” or other idiomatic phrases. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/229 "2004-10-06T13:25:27Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I’m sure it doesn’t really matter :). To the extent that the phrase is used as “one who denies the Holocaust,” it’s used idiomatically, in a manner that’s not related to the denotations of the phrase. You can’t backform from that a new definition for “apologist,” or other idiomatic phrases. Correct as usual. Always a pleasure to have you involved in these linguistic discussions. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/230 "2004-10-06T13:27:23Z")
**Evil Death** - You did notice that I brought up that very same quote in my last post on the subject, acknowledged that it was factually incorrect, and reframed my position, right? I was wrong. It isn’t impossible for a gay man to rape a little boy. It’s only really really really unlikely. So _mea culpa_. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/231 "2004-10-06T14:21:32Z")
> [@look!ninjas](#): > > **Evil Death** - You did notice that I brought up that very same quote in my last post on the subject, acknowledged that it was factually incorrect, and reframed my position, right? Yes, I did. It’s not relevant to Sol’s slagging me off for drawing an “imaginary” inference from what you originally said, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/232 "2004-10-06T15:09:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can you elaborate on this? I have no idea what you’re trying to say. I guess I’m just whining that the defintions aren’t as clear-cut as I’d like them to be. I’d like to have a definition that’s – meaningful (i.e. groups similar people together in a category) – as objective as possible (I don’t think “let the individual define him/herself” is very rigorous) – as concise as possible (“one who is attracted to the same sex, but only for consensual, adult relationships” lacks here) I guess I was just rambling that the English language isn’t perfect. > [@](#): > > I think this says more about you than it says about homosexuals or pedophiles. I don’t think that’s is untrue. But if enough people associate the term “homosexual” with “homosexual pedophilia”, the term will cease to have meaning just like “homophobe”. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/233 "2004-10-06T22:23:55Z")
> [@Fionn](#): > > **Evil Death**. your tenacity is outshone only by your idiocy. Well, that’s better than anything I could come up with in response. And **look!ninjas** – I just have to say I hope you’ve learned your lesson. You’ve got to stop being so mealy-mouthed and vague. I mean, saying the exact same thing three times and putting in italics? Just what exactly are you _getting_ at, here? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/234 "2004-10-07T01:45:55Z")
> [@look!ninjas](#): > > It isn’t impossible for a gay man to rape a little boy. It’s only really really really unlikely. So _mea culpa_. I suppose it would help to have the word of one of the leading researchers in the field on this one. It so happens that **RickJay** is acquainted with just such a man, Dr. Bill Marshall. Once upon a time **RickJay** wrote a letter to the man and detailed the relevant info in a pit thread. I can’t find the original, but [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244877&highlight=marshall) is the redux. Note please the date on the thread (March of this year); it need not be resurrected. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/235 "2004-10-07T02:51:20Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Yes, I did. It’s not relevant to Sol’s slagging me off for drawing an “imaginary” inference from what you originally said, though. Well, he posted before I did, though. If he skimmed and didn’t read the last line all the way through, he probably missed it. Anyway, it isn’t a big deal. What I’d like to know is what you thought of the rest of my post and my points and whether you still feel the way you did when we started this little hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/236 "2004-10-07T08:21:18Z")
> [@look!ninjas](#): > > Well, he posted before I did, though. If he skimmed and didn’t read the last line all the way through, he probably missed it. Anyway, it isn’t a big deal. What I’d like to know is what you thought of the rest of my post and my points and whether you still feel the way you did when we started this little hijack. If you expect people to change their minds merely because you’re making sense at them, your tenacity is outshone only by your idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/237 "2004-10-07T12:12:23Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > If you expect people to change their minds merely because you’re making sense at them, your tenacity is outshone only by your idiocy. 😃 Sorry. I’ll stop making sense now. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/238 "2004-10-07T12:28:46Z")
This whole thread is a train wreck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387.md?page=11)