# Enough with the "homophobe" bullshit, okay? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 28, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387 "2004-09-28T00:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/101 "2004-09-28T12:39:11Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > The point of the sentence containing the comment in question was that the suffix “phobe” appears virtually nowhere in common day-to-day discourse among the population in general, and/or in what it reads, hears or watches than in the word “homophobe.” First, I think that the “than” is supposed to be preceded by an “other”; am I right? If I’m wrong, I have no idea what the above sentence is supposed to mean. Operating on that assumption, I’m somewhat skeptical that the word “homophobe” is significantly more common in day-to-day English than the word “xenophobe,” and that there’s a significant number of people that know the former word but not the latter word. I’m also pretty skeptical that **Paul** et al have ever objected to the word “xenophobe” with the same vociferousness they object to the word “homophobe.” Finally, while you said that you no longer objected to the word, you did it in a rather patronizing fashion: > [@](#): > > However, I’ve been here longer now and I’ve developed the philosophy that gays have enough problems to deal with, and unfairness and dishonesty to deal with in their own lives, that if they should misappropriate a word in their effort to acheive equality and a better life, it really isn’t that big of a deal in the overall scope of things. In other words, in the middle of your absolution, you ding them again. **"They" aren’t misappropriating anything!** The word follows an accepted pattern. Its meaning is clear. The dictionary gives the same meaning that people use in common parlance. You should accept the word **because it’s a good word** , not because it’s a tiny sin. Note that I’m not accusing you of being a homophobe in any way, shape, or form. It’s just that I love the language, and I love arguing about the language, and I think you’re dead wrong on this issue from a purely linguistic standpoint. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/102 "2004-09-28T12:40:18Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > NEWSFLASH: there is no secret cabal of homos sitting around listening to Barbra Streisand and dictating the evolution of the English fucking language! Nice. NOW there’s no secret cabal, but until you started blabbing about it, it was secret! Now they’re going to have to switch to John Tesh or something just to keep the secrecy alive, and it’ll be all your fault. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/103 "2004-09-28T13:44:57Z")
Damn, it isn’t secret anymore? And I was so close to my next promotion (Evil Genius). I was getting tired of the title Supervillain. I guess our secret plan for world domination is still on track? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/104 "2004-09-28T13:59:07Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Damn, it isn’t secret anymore? And I was so close to my next promotion (Evil Genius). I was getting tired of the title Supervillain. I guess our secret plan for world domination is still on track? 😃 See, this is why we left-handers are gonna be the ones to take over the world: because WE know better than to blab everywhere about our pla– Oh, crap. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/105 "2004-09-28T14:48:40Z")
So, if “phobia” means dislike of rather than just fear of, do people who hate water have hydrophobia? Ahhh, you’re just a stereotypophobe. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/106 "2004-09-28T15:02:39Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > So, if “phobia” means dislike of rather than just fear of, do people who hate water have hydrophobia? I don’t understand the question: “phobia” means irrational hatred of OR fear of. It’s not a “rather than” situation at all. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/107 "2004-09-28T15:24:11Z")
Actually, “[hydrophobia](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hydrophobia)” is an excellent example of a word expanding beyond its etymological roots. Its original meaning is indeed “fear of water”. Its common understanding now is “rabies”, and it got there because > [@](#): > > The disease [is] caused by a bite form [sic], or inoculation with the saliva of, a rabid creature, of which the chief symptoms are, a sense of dryness and construction in the throat, causing difficulty in deglutition, and a marked heightening of reflex excitability, producing convulsions whenever the patient attempts to swallow, or is disturbed in any way, as by the sight or sound of water. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/108 "2004-09-28T15:41:14Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I don’t understand the question: “phobia” means irrational hatred of OR fear of. It’s not a “rather than” situation at all. > > Daniel ☹ Sigh. Didn’t mean to say “rather than.” Meant to say “as well as”. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/109 "2004-09-28T15:58:36Z")
RAREBIT, n. A Welsh rabbit, in the speech of the humorless, who point out that it is not a rabbit. To whom it may be solemnly explained that the comestible known as toad-in-a-hole is really not a toad, and that _riz-de-veau a la financière_ is not the smile of a calf prepared after the recipe of a she banker. - Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil’s Dictionary_ ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/110 "2004-09-28T16:10:24Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Too bad that’s a [fallacy](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html). > > We’re here to dispel ignorance. We did. Isn’t it ironic that a lot of people in favor of the term “homophobe” meaning aversion expound on changing of language and insist that language can and does change based on popular usage, then we have someone insisting that if the majority of the populace misuses a term, it still retains its old, superceded, meaning (such as “liberal”)? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/111 "2004-09-28T16:30:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Isn’t it ironic that a lot of people in favor of the term “homophobe” meaning aversion expound on changing of language and insist that language can and does change based on popular usage, then we have someone insisting that if the majority of the populace misuses a term, it still retains its old, superceded, meaning (such as “liberal”)? Not really. Folks who advocate equality don’t have a hive mind, and may disagree on some subjects; such a disagreement doesn’t constitute irony. In any case, words don’t have inherent meaning: they only have what meaning the speaker (or writer, etc.) and the listener (reader, etc.) understand them to have. Their meaning is in their conveyance of information. Therefore, words may have multiple and even contradictory meanings, depending on the context and on the understanding of the speaker and audience. I disagree with **kung fu lola** that a fallacy is involved in referring to the popular usage of the word. Not a hive mind, remember. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/112 "2004-09-28T16:33:14Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > ☹ > Sigh. Didn’t mean to say “rather than.” Meant to say “as well as”. Your question still doesn’t make sense. First, there’s no “if” about it; the “-phobia” suffix indicates fear _or_ aversion. This is nothing new. Anyone not aware of this obviously has a limited vocabulary. I’ve had reason to teach this suffix to my EFL students on multiple occasions, and I always explain it as meaning “fear or hate”. It would be easier to explain it as meaning simply “fear”, but I think it’s just as important for them to be able to figure out the meaning of words like “photophobia” and “xenophobia” as “claustrophobia” and “agoraphobia”. Actually, from a purely practical perspective, if I were forced to choose between “fear” and “hate” when explaining the meaning of “-phobia”, I’d go with just “hate”. This would be an incomplete definition, but unless you’re in the mental health field you’ll probably have little reason to ever discuss phobias in the psychiatric sense. “Xenophobia” at least is a word you might encounter while reading a mainstream newspaper or magazine, and one especially likely to be useful to the sort of person interested in mastering a foreign language in the first place. Secondly, what the hell kind of a person hates water? Someone who wouldn’t survive more than a couple of days, which is just as well as they’d be miserable on our water-covered planet and in their water-filled body anyway. “I prefer beverages with a little more flavor” or “I don’t really enjoy swimming” isn’t _hatred_ of water. If there are people who _hate_ water the way xenophobes _hate_ foreigners (“Evaporate back where you came from! That’s right, get out of here before I beat you into seperate atoms of hydrogen and oxygen!”) then yeah, I’d say they’ve got hydrophobia. Not in the “rabies” sense of course, but there’s no better English word to describe an irrational aversion to good ol’ H2O. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/113 "2004-09-28T16:36:55Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > “Evaporate back where you came from! That’s right, get out of here before I beat you into seperate atoms of hydrogen and oxygen!” 😃 Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/114 "2004-09-28T16:37:25Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Isn’t it ironic that a lot of people in favor of the term “homophobe” meaning aversion expound on changing of language and insist that language can and does change based on popular usage, then we have someone insisting that if the majority of the populace misuses a term, it still retains its old, superceded, meaning (such as “liberal”)? No, but it’s possibly ironic that you thought it was ironic due to popular misuse of the word “ironic”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/115 "2004-09-28T16:39:11Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Isn’t it ironic that a lot of people in favor of the term “homophobe” meaning aversion expound on changing of language and insist that language can and does change based on popular usage, then we have someone insisting that if the majority of the populace misuses a term, it still retains its old, superceded, meaning (such as “liberal”)? Actually, I was making the more subtle point that a lot of people _believe_ that it means exclusively “fear of” homosexuals, because it feeds into their smug need to put egalitarians in the wrong. However, \*\* “phobia” is correctly used to mean “hatred of” as well\*\*, and not just in the case of “homophobia”. Lots of other examples of this have been shown in this thread, and they exist not because of popularity, but because the word “phobia” _really does have a secondary meaning_, and that meaning was being used even before the concept of “homophobia” existed. It’s a _popular_ notion that people fighting for gay rights are using the word “phobia” wrongly, but that doesn’t mean it’s _right_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/116 "2004-09-28T16:41:11Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > that meaning was being used even before the concept of “homophobia” existed. Oops–I guess I don’t disagree with you after all. My bad! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/117 "2004-09-28T17:21:59Z")
Is there a meltdown countdown going yet? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/118 "2004-09-28T17:30:25Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Is there a meltdown countdown going yet? Don’t see one. Not yet, anyway. Give him time; he’s shaping up nicely, but not everyone is ready for the big leagues right off the bat. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/119 "2004-09-28T18:13:05Z")
If you ask a racist why they hate black people they will tell you something like ‘They’re all criminals and rapists’ ask an Anti-semite why they hate Jews and they would probably say ‘Jews controll all the money and they are out to take over the world’ Sounds to me that their hatred is tied into fear of those groups. Now what would a person who hates gay people say? Maybe something like ‘They’re all pedophiles and they are going to try and make my kids gay. And they are going to destroy marriage.’ Gee whiz! I think those people who hate gays, hate them because they fear gays. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387/120 "2004-09-28T18:50:40Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > First, I think that the “than” is supposed to be preceded by an “other”; am I right? If I’m wrong, I have no idea what the above sentence is supposed to mean. You are correct. Thank you for filling in my blank spaces. 😉 > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Finally, while you said that you no longer objected to the word, you did it in a rather patronizing fashion: > > In other words, in the middle of your absolution, you ding them again. > > **"They" aren’t misappropriating anything!** > > The word follows an accepted pattern. Its meaning is clear. The dictionary gives the same meaning that people use in common parlance. > > You should accept the word **because it’s a good word** , not because it’s a tiny sin. You are the second poster so far to take what I said this way. That isn’t how I meant it but I can easily see how it appears that way. What I meant was that if _in my view_ (the reason for my original objection, that is) the word had been misappropriated, etc. I think we all agree the word homophobe has only recently entered the lexicon (and the dictionary) in its current usage. I was saying that _if it seemed to me_ that it had been misappropriated, it still wasn’t a big deal. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Note that I’m not accusing you of being a homophobe in any way, shape, or form. It’s just that I love the language, and I love arguing about the language, and I think you’re dead wrong on this issue from a purely linguistic standpoint. No problem, and thanks. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enough-with-the-homophobe-bullshit-okay/266387.md?page=7)