# Enterprise SPOILERS! - The Forge **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 19, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748 "2004-11-19T23:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/21 "2004-11-20T02:50:58Z")
**NoClueBoy** , you can read all the boxes above. They don’t spoil anything. They’re just speculation based on the episode we’ve already seen. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/22 "2004-11-20T02:52:30Z")
Crewman Daniels didn’t show up with my CD this week. I hate to agree with you, Aes, but this pandering to past Trek dogma is beginning to grow old. The muttered “The Needs of the Many” is a good example of going too far. The reference to those who follow the raptor, or those under the raptor would be Romulans. But Spock doesn’t know about the Romulans in _Balance of Terror_. There had better be a good reason for having T’Pau at the end of this arc rather than mere grandstanding. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/23 "2004-11-20T02:52:58Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > **NoClueBoy** , you can read all the boxes above. They don’t spoil anything. They’re just speculation based on the episode we’ve already seen. I know, thanks I put SPOILERS! in the title. No need for boxes. Assume everything in this thread is a spoiler. It’s a spoiler thread. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/24 "2004-11-20T02:57:32Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > And the reason I dislike it is because, in recent years, I have started to intensely dislike the whole everything is interconnected aspect of Trek. I HATE HATE HATE that Soong showed up in ENT, that Kirk was in Generations, that Riker had a great great great great great great uncle that was saved by Q and so on. It’s so hokey. > > That Archer is carrying Surak’s katra is eleventy bazillion times worse. > > Of course, the episodes might be fine but if that happens, it’s still going to annoy. Much like the trilogy we just had. I didn’t mind the trillogy we just had. I don’t think the interconnectedness is that bad. It only bothers me if it’s ridiculously coincidental. And there’s nothing particular coincidental about Archer carrying Surak’s katra, or Noonien Soong having an important ancestor. Now, Voyager finding Amelia Earhart in the middle of the Delta Quadrant – now that was just cheesy. But that’s not an example of interconnectedness. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/25 "2004-11-20T02:58:55Z")
I used spoiler boxes because lee did. I generally reply to people in the manner that they first talked to me, hence the boxes. I’ll stop using them now though. Maybe. **HOSHI HOSHI HOSHI** ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/26 "2004-11-20T03:00:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > 1- The muttered “The Needs of the Many” is a good example of going too far. > > 2- The reference to those who follow the raptor, or those under the raptor would be Romulans. But Spock doesn’t know about the Romulans in _Balance of Terror_. 1- When Spock’s mommy told it to him later (TVH), Spock accepted it as an axiom. I would just assume it’s an integral part of Syrenne philosophy. 2- I was worried about that, too. But i thought I may have just misheard/saw stuff. This would be bad. Perhaps they explain it in the next two eps. Thyis ep strongly implies the Ambassador is Syrenne. imho ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/27 "2004-11-20T03:01:52Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Crewman Daniels didn’t show up with my CD this week. > I hate to agree with you, Aes, but this pandering to past Trek dogma is beginning to grow old. The muttered “The Needs of the Many” is a good example of going too far. > > The reference to those who follow the raptor, or those under the raptor would be Romulans. But Spock doesn’t know about the Romulans in _Balance of Terror_. > > There had better be a good reason for having T’Pau at the end of this arc rather than mere grandstanding. Isn’t “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” supposed to be a Vulcan saying? Why shouldn’t Soval say it? As for T’Pau, if she played an important role in the history of this century, we should _expect_ to see her. What you call “pandering to past Trek dogma” I call “continuity”, something that the first few seasons of Enterprise seemed to be lacking. I say, it’s about time. (Now Arek Soong talking about cybernetics, and saying “maybe in a few generations”, _that_ I’ll admit was going to far.) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/28 "2004-11-20T03:02:09Z")
Go play in traffic, **Aes**. 😛 Thank you for reminding me of my major gripe about this ep. NO HOSHI! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/29 "2004-11-20T03:15:28Z")
!@#$%^&\* Those stupid sons of targs left her out _again_? Damn, I miss the halcyon days of DS9 when every character (sans Jake… there’s always an exception) got plenty of airtime and storylines. Now we’re back to that stupid TOS mentality of only three characters mattering with a fourth thrown in occasionally (Scotty in TOS and Phlox in ENT) to supposedly spice things up a bit. We need more Reed, Mayweather and **HOSHI** , damn it. As much as I like Trip, we know enough about him already. And screw T’Pol (no, not that like that… you’d probably break her anyway) and Archer. Neither character is all that interesting although the latter has his moments. We need more Porthos too, by the way. DS9 did an awesome episode with Who Mourns for Morn and I think it could translate well for a doggie episode. C’mon! It’d be funny! Pft. \*\*Tarragon \*\*would agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/30 "2004-11-20T03:18:42Z")
I’ll report back later. **Aes** , I am in full taping mode once again now that my Risa trip is over. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/31 "2004-11-20T03:20:03Z")
Merry and Malcolm were very involved in Act I. Phlox and Malcolm quite a bit throughout, supporting roles only. I look forward to the Bable ep. Everyone should get in on that one. If I have anything to say about it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/32 "2004-11-20T03:26:38Z")
Bable? As in Tower of? If Hoshi’s not in that one, I’m really going to get annoyed. **viva** , are you keeping the tapes for a massive mail-off in a month or two or are you sending them normally even though I won’t be able to watch them for a while? I forget. And since I can’t remember anyone else doing it, welcome to the ENT threads, **Tim**. It’s good to see we’re still getting new blood, especially after the departures of \*\*Tars \*\*and **Kn\*ckers**. Was there a third ENT Doper I’m forgetting? I feel like there is. ---
**Author:** ![Wearia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@Wearia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wearia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/33 "2004-11-20T04:00:47Z")
Well, this was in fact a very good episode. Of what looks like a very good season. Archer should have gotten a stillsuit from the Augments before heading out to the desert. He looked like he was losing more than a thimble full of water. Vulcan conspiracy…oooo. I just hope it doesn’t turn out to be a bunch of pink things living in the back of their neck and eating worms. Why is the helm officer qualified for forensic work? Oh well, this series has done worse things. UberArcher, now with Vulcan like superpowers! Hiyah! Looking forward to episode 2. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/34 "2004-11-20T04:08:40Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Isn’t “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” supposed to be a Vulcan saying? Why shouldn’t Soval say it? It’s pandering. I haven’t determined if this sort of thing previously only found in Trek novels is intended to proclaim “Look what a good author I am! I know everything about Star Trek!” or if it attempts to recruit fans who believe _they_ know all about Star Trek because the readers (in this case viewers) understand the references. Why throw in a cealot? Why mention having one as a pet? It’s an insignifigant reference to _Journey to Babel_ and some crap in the non canon animated series. In all fairness, Mrs. Plant was delighted with the cealot. Impressing the convention going Mrs. Plant? Now _that’s_ pandering. BTW, we were both pissed at Arched carrying Surak’s katra. ^:dubious:^ ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/35 "2004-11-20T04:10:27Z")
Saying “the needs of the many” was perfectly appropriate IMHO. They brought up the (inadmissable) mind meld, did the bring up the recently cloned DNA? Way of the raptor = Romulan, thanks for pointing that out (I must admit I didn’t make the connection). I heard in seson spoilers thet Romulans may be involved. This CAN be done without destroying continuity. (As long as no characters find out) Another nod to continuity. Whoevers 1st law of Mataphysics, was asked of Spock in STIV (answer: Nothing unreal exists). At least I’m guessing it is the same person. And a Seylot. Both T’Pau and Spock had them as pets. (Did this one match the one shown on the animated series?) Brian ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/36 "2004-11-20T04:17:53Z")
[Sehlats](http://images.google.com/images?q=sehlat&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi) ---
**Author:** ![medstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/37 "2004-11-20T04:26:25Z")
Are the Marines still on board Enterprise? I know that Daniel Dae Kim played one of the Marines so I’m assuming that he’s not on the show any more and some one else replaced him. Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/38 "2004-11-20T04:38:48Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > Saying “the needs of the many” was perfectly appropriate IMHO. How long can they keep this up? Someone in some thread somewhere (it may have been carved into the wall pf a Neanderthal cave, but I digress) raved about how much better TNG was than TOS. It was remarked by another post or editor or carving that TNG “stood on the heads of giants” certainly not a unique comment, but nonethless true. How long can they stand on that giant? Will whichever Vulcan who dies in this episode be put in a torpedo and shot at the Genesis planet? The IDIC was a crass marketing device created by Roddenberry. Shatner of all people refused to wear it and it fell to Nimoy to display this rancid piece of marketing. It serves a purpose in the episode, **BUT** and this is the nexus of my arguement, the purpose should have been served by an origional device, a GPS that T’Pol’s father took Sealot hunting, her Mother’s favorite tea pot when indeed her Mother hated tea, a data device bearing a letter from her Father in a war he never served in. I hated to see Admiral Forest go. He was named after Dee Kelley. But _thats_ good story writing. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/39 "2004-11-20T04:44:16Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > served by an origional device, Perhaps a spell checker that always produced the result, “Romulans suck. Vulcans Rule.” ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748/40 "2004-11-20T04:47:39Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It’s pandering. I haven’t determined if this sort of thing previously only found in Trek novels is intended to proclaim “Look what a good author I am! I know everything about Star Trek!” or if it attempts to recruit fans who believe _they_ know all about Star Trek because the readers (in this case viewers) understand the references. Was it also pandering when Soval said “peace and long life”? If not, then what’s the difference? They’re both just things that Vulcans say. Thanks for the welcome, **Aesiron**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-spoilers-the-forge/275748.md?page=3)