# Enterprise: Twilight spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 5, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471 "2003-11-05T02:54:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/81 "2003-11-10T03:37:37Z")
I said and/or. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/82 "2003-11-10T03:40:15Z")
Indeed, the whole point of _City_ was to undo what McCoy did. The Rest Button is merely a cheap lierary device to tell a story without having to abide by the results or burden the protagonists with character development gained therein. “Therein”? Good lord, I sound like my English teacher… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/83 "2003-11-10T03:49:46Z")
I beg your pardon. Pay attention. There will be a test on Tuesday. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/84 "2003-11-10T05:28:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Consider three chrono-beasties: A, B, and C. They go to treat C and it disappears from the present and the past. It alters the timeline so that there only ever was chrono-beastie A & B. So in that timeline they treat beastie B. But that means that there only was beastie A. Which of course they treat in the first (and only) treatment. Hence, no chrono-beasties once they begin–the first treatment is the last, etc. Hey, cool! A recursive Reset Button! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/85 "2003-11-10T15:20:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aesiron \* > \*\*Anyone else find it oddly coincidental that all the episodes that are considered among each series’ (TOS’ “City on the Edge of Forever”, TNG’s “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, DS9’s “The Visitor”, VOY’s “Year of Hell”, and ENT’s “Twilight”) best are time travel pieces and/or involve a reset button? \*\* The feature I see is that they can afford to _really_ explore the edges of a character’s personality without sacrificing their market share by making the character too “inaccessible” to the masses. They really want to give their character’s depth but they are too afraid of drawing a small audience share, however enthusiastic and loyal, and being cancelled. **emarkp** , good logic there! My above-post was a suggestion on how the timelines could interact and retain some knowledge of what-could-have-been. Writers use the fact that changes in the past cause ripples in the future, but ignore the fact that knowlege of the old future (and old past) is lost when you enter the new timeline. _Back to the Future_ did a great job with most elements because the characters retaining the knowledge switched timelines. Imagine having Quantum (and maybe or maybe not some others) go back in time, replace their previous selves, and prevent the problem. Now they retain knowledge, are actually a little older, and can worry that the past will repeat itself. Good character development and conflicts. Imagine if they also had swapped themselves with their past selves and consoled themselves with the fact that the future timeline with their past selves would never occur, so they are not really abandoing them in a future hell. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/86 "2003-11-10T16:03:33Z")
But is Star Trek “Wagon Train To The Stars” or “To Boldy Go Back To The Future”? If it’s a time travel show, so were _Quantun Leap_ and _Seven Days_. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/87 "2003-11-10T16:25:26Z")
But 😕, I thought we _were_ talking about the UPN show _Quantum Leap: The Next Generation_ that we’ve been watching all this time while waiting for the new _Star Trek_ series. BTW, I heard the new series is all about how Lassie’s mom and Zorro have a family and on their way to planet Mongo they meet Jet Jaguar and MechaGodzilla. Their son gets these mind powers and wishes everyone to the cornfields of Oz which later become the prison on Elba II, or the TOS amusement park planet. I forget. Or, did I get that wrong? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/88 "2003-11-10T16:30:45Z")
_Starship Mine, Family, The Enemy Within, Cogenitor, Tuvix, Mirror Mirror, Space Seed, The Undiscovered Country, The Best of Both Worlds_… were all stellar episodes that didn’t include time travel or a Reset button. If done right, the Reset button is an amazing device. If done poorly, it is simply an annoying God in a box. Sci Fi gets to use a lot of literary devices that wouldn’t pass the mustard in other genres. So we see things like a psche split into two beings, two psyches morphed into one person, alternate universes, mind control, telepathy, etc… But, I say BUT…, if they are not done well, the story suffers from the use of such devices/ideas. Star Trek does well when we either care about what’s happening to a character, or when the action is exciting enough that it overshadows the characters. Sometimes, time travel and/or reset fits that bill. In my opinion, for this episode, it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/89 "2003-11-10T19:14:04Z")
The Athelas Late Review In Brief: Me like. Reset-button episodes have gotten a lot of bad press, mainly because Voyager (mis)used them so often. Still, they can be very effective episodes, as “The Inner Light”, “The Visitor”, and, most recently, “Twilight” show. The key of reset-button episodes (RBE) is that they release the show from its constraints, allowing major characters to die and overall pushing the status quo. Twilight certainly doesn’t hide its RBE status. The teaser shows Earth being destroyed (in a very visceral shot, btw), so anyone with the intelligence of a slug can tell it’s a RBE. One of the best things about Twilight is how it shows the viewer how Archer must be feeling. After the fire-and-brimstone teaser, Archer wakes up in a sunny room. The viewer is having the same “huh?” reaction that he has. Another subtle feature along the same lines is near the beginning, when T’pol tells Archer that “this is an important day”. She doesn’t say any more, and the viewer tends to forget it until Phlox arrives and says “Didn’t you tell him?” The viewer is experiencing the same short-term memory loss that Archer had. Very nice touches, and well done. Mayweather dies! Hee hee. 😉 I wonder if anyone noticed he was gone. I guess he has no lines in this episode, unless you count “aargh!” Ceti Alpha V? I was half-expecting Archer to shout “T’POOOOOOOOL!” after he ran out of the building. I noticed that they didn’t just make everyone look old a la “Endgame”: Trip and Reed look middle-aged while Archer looks old. Very nice. And I liked T’pol (P’Tail?) too. “Remind me to thank General Shran”. Andorians gave shields to the pink-skins, I see. Too bad the generators are not in the form of two blue antenna shapes sticking out from the bridge. That would have been hilarious. Another great CGI shot when the bridge blows up. Too bad Starfleet didn’t record this incident: they would probably have moved the bridge to a more logical position in the interior of the ship. Nice acting all around. The score was very much stylized, with brooding music along with the Broken Bow/The Expanse Enterprise launch music. It reflects Archer’s going through years’ worth of emotions. Which brings me to my greatest problem with Twilight: the ending. Archer didn’t remember anything. I could understand that TPTB wouldn’t want Archer to get any information from the future (the weapon will be constructed in x months, the location is at x place, etc) but from what T’pol told him there wasn’t much useful information. If I had my way, the final act would be as follows: [Enterprise blows up] Archer wakes up: Phlox… Phlox: How are you feeling? Archer: Like a shutt [pause] Like a shuttlepod landed on my head. Phlox: You’ve had a mild concussion. I want to keep you for observation overnight. Archer: [glances around dazedly] T’pol…what’s our status? T’pol: We’ve cleared the anomalies blah blah blah you saved my life blah [leaves] Archer: Where are we? T’pol: [rattles off a series of coordinates] Phlox: [interrupting] You should rest. [flips off lights] Archer: [looks around dazedly] [lies down] [whispers] There is still hope… [Enner’prize flies off amid brooding music] ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/90 "2003-11-10T19:17:27Z")
The Athelas Late Review In Brief: Me like. Reset-button episodes have gotten a lot of bad press, mainly because Voyager (mis)used them so often. Still, they can be very effective episodes, as “The Inner Light”, “The Visitor”, and, most recently, “Twilight” show. The key of reset-button episodes (RBE) is that they release the show from its constraints, allowing major characters to die and overall pushing the status quo. Twilight certainly doesn’t hide its RBE status. The teaser shows Earth being destroyed (in a very visceral shot, btw), so anyone with the intelligence of a slug can tell it’s a RBE. One of the best things about Twilight is how it shows the viewer how Archer must be feeling. After the fire-and-brimstone teaser, Archer wakes up in a sunny room. The viewer is having the same “huh?” reaction that he has. Another subtle feature along the same lines is near the beginning, when T’pol tells Archer that “this is an important day”. She doesn’t say any more, and the viewer tends to forget it until Phlox arrives and says “Didn’t you tell him?” The viewer is experiencing the same short-term memory loss that Archer had. Very nice touches, and well done. Mayweather dies! Hee hee. 😉 I wonder if anyone noticed he was gone. I guess he has no lines in this episode, unless you count “aargh!” Ceti Alpha V? I was half-expecting Archer to shout “T’POOOOOOOOL!” after he ran out of the building. I noticed that they didn’t just make everyone look old a la “Endgame”: Trip and Reed look middle-aged while Archer looks old. Very nice. And I liked T’pol (P’Tail?) too. “Remind me to thank General Shran”. Andorians gave shields to the pink-skins, I see. Too bad the generators are not in the form of two blue antenna shapes sticking out from the bridge. That would have been hilarious. Another great CGI shot when the bridge blows up. Too bad Starfleet didn’t record this incident: they would probably have moved the bridge to a more logical position in the interior of the ship. Nice acting all around. The score was very much stylized, with brooding music along with the Broken Bow/The Expanse Enterprise launch music. It reflects Archer’s going through years’ worth of emotions. Which brings me to my greatest problem with Twilight: the ending. Archer didn’t remember anything. I could understand that TPTB wouldn’t want Archer to get any information from the future (the weapon will be constructed in x months, the location is at x place, etc) but from what T’pol told him there wasn’t much useful information. If I had my way, the final act would be as follows: [Enterprise blows up] Archer wakes up: Phlox… Phlox: How are you feeling? Archer: Like a shutt [pause] Like a shuttlepod landed on my head. Phlox: You’ve had a mild concussion. I want to keep you for observation overnight. Archer: [glances around dazedly] T’pol…what’s our status? T’pol: We’ve cleared the anomalies blah blah blah you saved my life blah [leaves] Archer: Where are we? T’pol: [rattles off a series of coordinates] Phlox: [interrupting] You should rest. [flips off lights] Archer: [looks around dazedly] [lies down] [whispers] There is still hope… [Enner’prize flies off amid brooding music] Rating: 9/10 liters of liquid platinum. If the ending had been modified, it would be 10. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/91 "2003-11-10T19:32:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*_Starship Mine, Family, The Enemy Within, Cogenitor, Tuvix, Mirror Mirror, Space Seed, The Undiscovered Country, The Best of Both Worlds_… were all stellar episodes that didn’t include time travel or a Reset button. > > If done right, the Reset button is an amazing device. If done poorly, it is simply an annoying God in a box.\*\* Yes. I realize that. Every episode you listed is a favorite of mine and almost every other Trekkers but that isn’t what I’m saying. My point is that the _generally acknowledged most popular and well respected show_ (singular) of each series (disregarding Enterprise) have all involved reset buttons. “City on the Edge of Forever” is **always** lauded as TOS’s best. “Yesterday’s Enterprise” usually is but sometimes shares the honor with “The Best of Both Worlds” as TNG’s. “The Visitor” is the equivalent of TOS’ “City…” in that it’s always everyone’s favorite. And Voyager’s “Year of Hell” is pretty much the definitive reset button episode and despite it being a Voyager episode, is always described as a great episode. For a plot device we hate, we sure do give a lot of love to its usage. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/92 "2003-11-10T19:35:41Z")
By the way, that was a good review, **athelas**. I’m not sure I agree with you saying Archer should have remembered but I do agree with most everything else you said. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/93 "2003-11-10T19:49:17Z")
Inner Light is not a reset button. Picard remembers what happened to him. For the same reason, City is not a reset button episode. If the reset button is metaphorically pressed, it is as though the episode never happened; it is reset. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/94 "2003-11-10T20:12:10Z")
You said “among” **Aes**. So, I listed others that are “among” the best without having a reset button. Besides, each series’ best ep is still being debated. While TOS’ _City on the Edge…_ gets the critical acclaim, when the Sci Fi channel had viewers (AKA: fans) vote on the best (from way back in 1991 or so), _The Trouble With Tribbles_ won by a disturbingly large margin. (_City_ was 3rd, iirc) So, not “always” even with that one almost perfect episode. Critical acclaim and popularity don’t always agree. Even among Trekkers. I find it funny, too, that the absolute best (imo) reset button ep is from VOY. Wasn’t even the first time VOY used it ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/95 "2003-11-10T20:16:00Z")
My mistake then. I still think there’s something to it though. It’s a hated device but it makes some great episodes. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/96 "2003-11-10T20:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\* > If done right, the Reset button is an amazing device. If done poorly, it is simply an annoying God in a box. > > \*\* I’m not against its use. It’s the misuse that grates my nerves. When used well, even The Wesley had a passable episode or two. (let the flames begin 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/97 "2003-11-10T20:32:47Z")
[What was so evil about Wesley Crusher?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166220) ;j ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/98 "2003-11-10T20:38:44Z")
It’s all moot. In 123 years, at the end of _Star Trek: Quark_, the continuing adventures of a United Federation Garbage Scow, a _real_ time machine is invented and Star Trek fans go back to correct all of the failed episodes, right **'Plant**. The mice are furious and kill them all. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/99 "2003-11-10T20:57:01Z")
Nuts to your mice. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471/100 "2003-11-10T21:02:14Z")
They’re not **my** mice! They’re Pan-Galactic Hyperdimensional Beings … and they love nuts, especially _yours_. [Homer] mmmmm - nuts [/Homer] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-twilight-spoilers/211471.md?page=6)