# Enterprise vs. Honor Harrington **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 10, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042 "2011-06-10T23:41:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/61 "2011-06-15T00:21:47Z")
I think we have three basic questions here. Can the Enterprise be harmed by lasers? Can the Enterprise be harmed by nukes? Can phasers penetrate gravity warping shields? Can photon torpedos penetrate gravity warping shields? > **[Laser](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Laser)** > > A laser was a directed-energy technology utilizing a beam of light, with all wavelengths equal and all particles in phase with one another. Due to this, the photon's motion was almost parallel, which allowed the beam to travel over a great distance... Lasers would not even pierce the ‘navigation shields’ of a -D ship. I’m assuming this is the micrometeorite deflector style shields, which may or may not be forced to lower during a transport. I’m going to note that early in the Enterprise’s career, large ground-based lasers were used, but they seem to have been obsoleted some time in the past. Nuclear weapons detonated point blank in front of the 1701 resulted in minor injury and some electric disruption. > **[Atomic weapon](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Atomic_weapon)** > > An atomic weapon (also known as an atomic bomb, A-bomb, nuclear weapon, or more commonly nuke or nuclear device) was a term that generally described a device developed by Humans and other species that utilized the principles of either or both of... I’m going to say that by the time of the -D, they’re mostly ineffective. > **[Deflector shield](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Deflector_shield)** > > Deflector shields or shield grids, generally referred to simply as shields, were a type of force field that surrounded a starship, space station, or planet that was used to protect against enemy attacks or natural hazards. Deflector shields worked by... Apparently, the Constitution-class could take 90 photon torpedos at once. > **[Photon torpedo](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Photon_torpedo)** > > Photon torpedoes were warp-capable tactical matter/antimatter weapons commonly deployed aboard starships and starbases by various organizations. Photon torpedoes, often abbreviated as "photons", were called Pu'DaH dak cha in Klingonese. (TNG: "The... Photon torpedos are matter-antimatter weapons. One of them can do considerable damage to an unshielded ship. What would the effect of a photon torp hitting a Honorverse ship be? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/62 "2011-06-15T01:07:09Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Lasers would not even pierce the ‘navigation shields’ of a -D ship. I’m assuming this is the micrometeorite deflector style shields, which may or may not be forced to lower during a transport. This bit comes up a lot in discussions like this, but people forget the context. In context, they were speaking of the kind of lasers that could be found in the Trek universe, and fitted onboard a small ship. Trek civilizations seem to go from lasers to other weapons at a fairly low level of technological advancement; so saying that a weapon is a laser is a lot like saying in the modern world a gun is a black powder cannon, it implies all sorts of things about the technology and power level involved. And the size of the ship adds its own constraints. In other words, being immune to the kinds of lasers to be expected onboard a small Trek ship doesn’t mean you are immune to a huge Honorverse superdreadnaught graser or the Ringworld defense laser. They wouldn’t expect a laser to be that powerful any more than you would expect the previously mentioned black powder cannon to fire nuclear cannonballs. > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Photon torpedos are matter-antimatter weapons. One of them can do considerable damage to an unshielded ship. What would the effect of a photon torp hitting a Honorverse ship be? It would go splat against a sidewall. Against bare armor I expect it would seriously damage or destroy the ship - assuming it got though Manticoran point defense. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/63 "2011-06-15T02:46:39Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Can the Enterprise be harmed by nukes? In Balance of Terror the Enterprise is seriously messed up by a nuke detonating at close range. Kirk had the phasers fire to detonate it before it hit. It is stated that had he not given that order it would have been much, much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/64 "2011-06-15T02:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > In other words, being immune to the kinds of lasers to be expected onboard a small Trek ship doesn’t mean you are immune to a huge Honorverse superdreadnaught graser or the Ringworld defense laser. They wouldn’t expect a laser to be that powerful any more than you would expect the previously mentioned black powder cannon to fire nuclear cannonballs. The same argument also holds for nukes: Anything an antimatter photon torpedo can do, a sufficiently-powerful nuke can also do. “Sufficiently large” might be very large indeed, but then, Honor’s nukes _are_ very large indeed. For comparison, typical nuclear missiles used by Manticoran ships have a yield of [between 15 and 40 megatons](http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Missile#Technical_Specs), while Trek photon torpedoes appear to have a yield of around [64 megatons](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo#Technical_Manuals). So the Trek weapons are individually more powerful, but only by at most a factor of 4 or so. On the other hand, though, the [BC-413 Nike](http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/HMS_Nike_%28BC-413%29) could launch 52 of those missiles in a single salvo. So a single salvo from the Nike is equivalent to 13 photon torpedoes from the Enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/65 "2011-06-15T04:47:38Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > And real alcohol!😃 Now, now. This is Kirk’s _Enterprise_ we’re talking about. They had Saurian brandy and Romulan ale and… something green. It was Picard and his generation who were stuck with synthehol. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/66 "2011-06-15T05:43:09Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > In Balance of Terror the Enterprise is seriously messed up by a nuke detonating at close range. Kirk had the phasers fire to detonate it before it hit. It is stated that had he not given that order it would have been much, much worse. Funny, by sheer coincidence, I was _just_ watching that episode. Apparently, they didn’t detonate the nuclear warhead until it was **100 meters** away. How in heck they let it get that close, one can only guess – presumably it’s because of Trek’s “make sure everything’s close enough to see before you shoot it 'cause it looks better on film” rule. The episode also made no mention of _Enterprise_’s deflector shields (although the communications from asteroid outpost 4 mentioned their own deflectors). It’s probably because the episode was lifted from _The Enemy Below_ and real navy surface ships don’t have deflector shields. (The phasers also acted suspiciously like depth charges.) ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/67 "2011-06-15T05:45:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > They never said how many [photon torpedoes] Kirk’s original _Enterprise_ carried, but I’d guess a coupla dozen. Until _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_, it wasn’t clear that photon torpedoes were physical objects **at all**. In fact, in the wargame Star Fleet Battles, which is based on Franz Joseph’s TOS Technical Manual, photon torpedoes require energy to arm and fire but there is never an ammunition limit. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/68 "2011-06-15T08:30:22Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Now, now. This is Kirk’s _Enterprise_ we’re talking about. They had Saurian brandy and Romulan ale and… something green. It was Picard and his generation who were stuck with synthehol. Well, Synhehol and “something green”, which Picard evidently gave to Guinan at some point in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/69 "2011-06-15T12:41:19Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Until _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_, it wasn’t clear that photon torpedoes were physical objects **at all**. In fact, in the wargame Star Fleet Battles, which is based on Franz Joseph’s TOS Technical Manual, photon torpedoes require energy to arm and fire but there is never an ammunition limit. That’s pretty much how I remember it. I don’t know how you would Overload a physical torpedo but then again the SFB games were not canon. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/70 "2011-06-15T14:31:06Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > That’s pretty much how I remember it. I don’t know how you would Overload a physical torpedo but then again the SFB games were not canon. Since Star Trek II made Star Trek into Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE, I suppose it involves some Ensigns packing extra anti-matter into one of the torpedoes with a ramrod. Pretty dangerous work, but of course, that’s why they have Ensigns. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/71 "2011-06-15T14:35:50Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Since Star Trek II made Star Trek into Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE, I suppose it involves some Ensigns packing extra anti-matter into one of the torpedoes with a ramrod. Pretty dangerous work, but of course, that’s why they have Ensigns. 😃 Pah! The Original Series was _already_ Horatio Hornblower In Space. Of course, Kirk could never out-Horatio-Hornblower Honor Harrington. There’s a reason her initials are H.H.. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/72 "2011-06-15T14:47:01Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > That’s pretty much how I remember it. I don’t know how you would Overload a physical torpedo but then again the SFB games were not canon. In their defense, the original, micro-pouch edition of Star Fleet Battles didn’t have rules for overloading torpedoes. It was the original micro-pouch rules that were based on the TOS technical manual. Every edition after that, including the Designer’s Edition where overloads were introduced, was basically taking liberties. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/73 "2011-06-15T22:31:21Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Pah! The Original Series was _already_ Horatio Hornblower In Space. > > Of course, Kirk could never out-Horatio-Hornblower Honor Harrington. There’s a reason her initials are H.H.. No, silly, the original series was Wagon Train To The Stars (IN SPACE! No wait, that’s just redundant.) ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/74 "2011-09-01T21:08:09Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > And self-sealing space suits for the crew. And a bridge nestled deep inside the ship, not sitting on top of it with a great big “SHOOT ME HERE!” sign taped to it. (They still can’t outrun a photon torpedo, though, while the Big E can easily outrun Manticoran missiles.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/75 "2011-09-01T21:18:54Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > And a bridge nestled deep inside the ship, not sitting on top of it with a great big “SHOOT ME HERE!” sign taped to it. > > (They still can’t outrun a photon torpedo, though, while the Big E can easily outrun Manticoran missiles.) One missile, yes. Sure. Assuming it’s oriented correctly to flee, the engines are ready for warp, and everyone is on their “A” game. But warships in Her Majesty’s Navy don’t just launch _one_ missile. They launch missile _pods_. Lots of them. Often from externally mounted racks they can flush in _seconds_, before they even start to bother with the internal launchers. And every one of those missiles has a laser fueled by an exploding nuclear bomb. If memory serves, a large Manticoran cruiser can launch salvos of _hundreds_ of missiles. So, yes. If the Enterprise is correctly positioned and situated to flee, warp drive will enable it to do so. But God have mercy on the crew of that ship if it cannot or does not jump to warp - because Lady Dame Honor Harringon, Admiral of the Fleed Harrington, Death-Destroyer-of-Worlds Harrington, most certainly will not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/76 "2011-09-01T21:24:04Z")
Oh, this thread is back! > [@Chronos](#): > > The same argument also holds for nukes: Anything an antimatter photon torpedo can do, a sufficiently-powerful nuke can also do. “Sufficiently large” might be very large indeed, but then, Honor’s nukes _are_ very large indeed. > > For comparison, typical nuclear missiles used by Manticoran ships have a yield of [between 15 and 40 megatons](http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Missile#Technical_Specs), while Trek photon torpedoes appear to have a yield of around [64 megatons](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo#Technical_Manuals). So the Trek weapons are individually more powerful, but only by at most a factor of 4 or so. On the other hand, though, the [BC-413 Nike](http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/HMS_Nike_%28BC-413%29) could launch 52 of those missiles in a single salvo. So a single salvo from the Nike is equivalent to 13 photon torpedoes from the Enterprise. Small correction: Manticoran laser head nukes are between 15 and 40 megatons. Contact nukes on the other hand go as high as _500_ megatons. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/77 "2011-09-01T21:39:49Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > But warships in Her Majesty’s Navy don’t just launch _one_ missile. They launch missile _pods_. Lots of them. Often from externally mounted racks they can flush in _seconds_, before they even start to bother with the internal launchers. And every one of those missiles has a laser fueled by an exploding nuclear bomb. If memory serves, a large Manticoran cruiser can launch salvos of _hundreds_ of missiles. > > So, yes. If the Enterprise is correctly positioned and situated to flee, warp drive will enable it to do so. But God have mercy on the crew of that ship if it cannot or does not jump to warp - because Lady Dame Honor Harringon, Admiral of the Fleed Harrington, Death-Destroyer-of-Worlds Harrington, most certainly will not. Ah, but do Royal Manticoran warships have targeting software that can track a grav source headed toward them faster than _c_ ? And even if they do, do the missiles have that capability? Can the missiles even _track_ grav/impeller sources? The [Honorverse Wiki entry for “missile”](http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Missile) is silent on what kind of tracking systems are aboard a missile, and whether they can track impeller emissions or instead rely on onboard radar. If they cannot track grav sources, they will be _completely blind_ when faced with the U.S.S. Enterprise closing in on them at Warp 1.1. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/78 "2011-09-01T21:43:58Z")
Offtopic: I just learned (and if this is old news to you guys, I apologise) that there are two Honorverse books on the way: **A Beautiful Friendship** (listed as the begining of a “young adult” series) [Amazon link](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1451637470/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_g14_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0N7S6K7XG9P8XEAMN6F1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846) **A Rising Thunder** , [Amazon linky](http://www.amazon.com/Rising-Thunder-Honor-Harrington/dp/145163806X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_), with more Honor Harrington derring do in a 2012 release. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/79 "2011-09-01T21:54:11Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Ah, but do Royal Manticoran warships have targeting software that can track a grav source headed toward them faster than _c_ ? In the novels, the Manties find a way to use faster-than-light means of communication, via gravity waves. So: yes. > [@](#): > > And even if they do, do the missiles have that capability? Can the missiles even _track_ grav/impeller sources? The [Honorverse Wiki entry for “missile”](http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Missile) is silent on what kind of tracking systems are aboard a missile, and whether they can track impeller emissions or instead rely on onboard radar. If they cannot track grav sources, they will be _completely blind_ when faced with the U.S.S. Enterprise closing in on them at Warp 1.1. In the later part of the Manty-Havenite war, the Manties installed Gravitic transmitter/receivers on their missile to be able to guide their missiles post launch. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/80 "2011-09-01T23:02:30Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Offtopic: > > I just learned (and if this is old news to you guys, I apologise) that there are two Honorverse books on the way: > > **A Beautiful Friendship** (listed as the begining of a “young adult” series) [Amazon link](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1451637470/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_g14_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0N7S6K7XG9P8XEAMN6F1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846) > > **A Rising Thunder** , [Amazon linky](http://www.amazon.com/Rising-Thunder-Honor-Harrington/dp/145163806X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_), with more Honor Harrington derring do in a 2012 release. And may I just say that I’m geeked out about these. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042.md?page=5)