# Enterprise vs. Honor Harrington **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 10, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042 "2011-06-10T23:41:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/81 "2011-09-02T00:06:01Z")
Already pre-ordered. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/82 "2011-09-02T02:40:02Z")
Another off topic question(although I think Honor would eat the Enterprise for breakfast) Just how many different titles does Honor Harrington now hold? She’s a Steadholder of Grayson, an Admiral in the Grayson Navy, she’s Dame Honor, a countess of Manticore. And I think there are others. Not sure if Manticore had a term for wife, such as Mrs. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/83 "2011-09-02T02:55:23Z")
She’s a countess _and_ a duchess. Last I figured it out, she’s something like Lady Dame Admiral Admiral Honor Stephanie Harrington, Steadholder Harrington, Duchess Harrington, Countess Harrington, Countess White Haven, PMV, KGCR, SG, MC, CGM (I had to Google to double-check the postfix abbreviations). ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/84 "2011-09-02T03:06:31Z")
I wasn’t sure about her White Haven title. I know that the White Haven’s faith(Third Reformation Catholic?) can have more than one wife, but I wasn’t sure if a second wife was also the countess. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/85 "2011-09-02T09:29:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > She’s a countess _and_ a duchess. Last I figured it out, she’s something like Lady Dame Admiral Admiral Honor Stephanie Harrington, Steadholder Harrington, Duchess Harrington, Countess Harrington, Countess White Haven, PMV, KGCR, SG, MC, CGM (I had to Google to double-check the postfix abbreviations). When did she become Countess Harrington? I know one of her titles got passed on to her cousin after she died (though I think that was a barony). Then when it turned out the reports of her death had been highly fabricated, she got her Duchessness. Also, I think she is Admiral of the Fleet in both the Grayson Space Navy (second or third senior-most officer) and the RMN. Add to her titles: Commander Home Fleet, Commander, Protector’s Own Squadron, and Captain, HMS _Unconquered_. She may also have some rank in the Sidemore Navy, but I’m not sure about that one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/86 "2011-09-02T10:00:12Z")
The only passage I recall on the subject is this one: [QUOTE=At All Costs] Admiral Lady Dame Honor Alexander-Harrington, Duchess and Steadholder Harrington (and possibly—Hamish wasn’t certain exactly how it would work out—Countess White Haven), walked across the shuttle pad lounge in a euphoric haze. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/87 "2011-09-02T16:10:54Z")
> [@](#): > > When did she become Countess Harrington? I know one of her titles got passed on to her cousin after she died (though I think that was a barony). Then when it turned out the reports of her death had been highly fabricated, she got her Duchessness. Her first noble title was Countess, which was significant since it was higher than North Hollow’s barony. Then after she came back from Cerberus, Elizabeth explained that she had underestimated the significance of “steadholder”, and that it was more appropriately matched by “duchess”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/88 "2011-09-02T16:16:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Her first noble title was Countess, which was significant since it was higher than North Hollow’s barony. Then after she came back from Cerberus, Elizabeth explained that she had underestimated the significance of “steadholder”, and that it was more appropriately matched by “duchess”. But _that_ title was passed on to her cousin Devon when Honor was thought dead, and when he was killed in the Mesan attack passed to another cousin named Sarah. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/89 "2011-09-02T17:24:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But _that_ title was passed on to her cousin Devon when Honor was thought dead, and when he was killed in the Mesan attack passed to another cousin named Sarah. I forget. Was there a lack of a way for her hereditary title to legally revert back to her after she was declared dead but turned up alive? Did she decide not to challenge the transfer just to make the issue moot? * * * If I am declared dead in real life, and my estate is divided according to my will, and then turn up alive ten years later, do I have to sue to get my house back? Do I have any standing to sue? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/90 "2011-09-02T18:09:28Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I forget. Was there a lack of a way for her hereditary title to legally revert back to her after she was declared dead but turned up alive? > > Did she decide not to challenge the transfer just to make the issue moot? > > * * * She didn’t particularly care, but _Elizabeth_ did in _Ashes of Victory_: > [@](#): > > “Now that you’ve returned from the dead, as it were, the situation has changed rather radically, however. If they want to see it that way, I’ve actually outmaneuvered myself by having Devon confirmed as Earl Harrington, since I now have no choice but to allow him to remain earl, thus neatly depriving you of any legitimate claim to his seat in the Lords, or else initiate steps to deprive him of the title in your favor. Legally, of course,” she gave Devon a brief, almost apologetic smile, “there would be no problem with the latter. You aren’t dead, after all, and there are plenty of legal precedents to cover the return of your property, including your peerage. But there would be a certain amount of embarrassment for the Crown in jumping through all the legal hoops, particularly after how, um, quietly but . . . _forcefully_ Duke Cromarty and I made the case for confirming him in the first place.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/91 "2011-09-02T18:24:04Z")
Ah, OK, I thought something like that might have happened, but didn’t want to rely on my memory to say anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/92 "2011-09-02T19:09:39Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/93 "2011-09-02T21:22:01Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Another off topic question(although I think Honor would eat the Enterprise for breakfast) Good luck on her digesting it, when it’s moving through her intestines at Warp Eight! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/94 "2011-09-02T21:27:26Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > > [@tracer](#): > > > > Ah, but do Royal Manticoran warships have targeting software that can track a grav source headed toward them faster than _c_ ? > > In the novels, the Manties find a way to use faster-than-light means of communication, via gravity waves. So: yes. My hand-held TV remote control emits pulses of near-infrared light. My television has the ability to sense near-infrared light and interpret the pulses, as a means of communication. Does that mean my television can track objects in space that emit near-infrared light, to the point of being able to target weapons on them? **No.** ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/95 "2011-09-02T21:31:19Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > My hand-held TV remote control emits pulses of near-infrared light. My television has the ability to sense near-infrared light and interpret the pulses, as a means of communication. > > Does that mean my television can track objects in space that emit near-infrared light, to the point of being able to target weapons on them. > > **No.** I said faster than light comm. Here: [Faster-than-light | Honorverse | Fandom](http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Faster-than-light) > [@](#): > > **FTL communication** > > Faster-than-light communication by anything but courier remained impossible until Manticore’s breakthrough at the beginning of the 20th Century PD. By using a specialized gravity generator to create rapid pulses that could be detected by gravity sensors (which can detect gravity waves in real time), the Royal Manticoran Navy was able to communicate in realtime across the full range of their gravity sensors (to all practical purposes, anything short of interstellar range). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/96 "2011-09-02T21:34:26Z")
Even before the comm, they still tracked gravitational phenomena traveling at FTL speeds; they just hadn’t figured out how to use them for communications. In fact, gravitational phenomena are their primary way of gathering tactical data. So yes, to the point of being able to target weapons. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/97 "2011-09-02T21:37:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even before the comm, they still tracked gravitational phenomena traveling at FTL speeds; they just hadn’t figured out how to use them for communications. In fact, gravitational phenomena are their primary way of gathering tactical data. So yes, to the point of being able to target weapons. I was thinking about it. If the Big E stayed at warp, they could track it. Their missles are essentially bomb pumped lasers. The grasers are light speed weapons. You would have to build a barrage of beams in the expected path of the Enterprise, and hope they fly through a beam. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/98 "2011-09-02T21:54:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even before the comm, they still tracked gravitational phenomena traveling at FTL speeds; they just hadn’t figured out how to use them for communications. In fact, gravitational phenomena are their primary way of gathering tactical data. So yes, to the point of being able to target weapons. Actually, the point I was trying to make was a much more minor nit than this, and probably qualifies as splitting hairs: - They can track grav sources. - Gravitational signals travel at FTL speeds. - Therefore, their tracking involves signals travelling at FTL speeds. This I don’t dispute. - **BUT** , they’re not used to tracking grav **sources** which themselves are moving at FTL speeds. They’re used to tracking ships in normal space. Can a ship in normal space track an enemy target that’s currently in one of the Hyper bands? I don’t think so – each hyper band is a different, parallel space, whose contents shouldn’t “leak out” into the normal universe. So, all their onboard grav-tracking software is written with the notion in mind that no _trackable_ source is going to be moving faster than _c_. The Enterprise violates that assumption. Even if an Honorverse ship can detect precisely where the Enterprise is while it’s at warp, its software might not be able to handle the fact that it’s moving at FTL speeds. Admittedly, this is a minor nit. Once they realize that targets _can_ move FTL in normal space, they could just assign Shannon Foraker or Aubrey Wanderman to rewrite the sotware. They’d have a fully functioning FTL-normal-space-targeting system in place inside of 2 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/99 "2011-09-02T21:56:59Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I was thinking about it. If the Big E stayed at warp, they could track it. > > Their missles are essentially bomb pumped lasers. The grasers are light speed weapons. You would have to build a barrage of beams in the expected path of the Enterprise, and hope they fly through a beam. Of course, the Enterprise’s subspace sensors could see them firing missiles _and beams_ before they hit. (Yes, they could see the beams too. Laser and Graser beams move at Warp 1. Their subspace sensors’ tracking signals move at, oh, warp 9-point-something. They have been able to see supernova explosions, with enough warning to outrun them, in previous episodes.) Then the Captain could just say: “Execute plan B. Back up at warp 1.1, and lob photon torpedoes at them 'til they explode.” (Photon torpedoes travel at warp 9, which is about 1000_c_.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042/100 "2011-09-03T00:38:56Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > “Execute plan B. Back up at warp 1.1, and lob photon torpedoes at them 'til they explode.” _\_ “Ah, Captain. We’re out of torpedoes, and they appear to not be exploding.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enterprise-vs-honor-harrington/585042.md?page=6)