# Entertain me. Please. (The Hovind Evolution Challenge) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331 "2001-01-23T00:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/81 "2001-01-25T14:41:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > **Are not the negroid races taller & faster that the oriental races? No one denies there are differences between the races, to some extent- physically. However, Gould & co state that there not only is not, but I think that they believe there CAN NOT be any differences between the races intellecually. A scientific study showing that one race is inferior (slightly) than another is attacked immediately as “racist”. Do you think that Labradors are smarter that Toy Poodles? It is certainly POSSIBLE than one race is slightly smarter, on the average, than another. However, and this is critical- even if there is a small AVERAGE difference in the races- individual differences are far more important & radical than any minor racial differences. Note- this hijack is over. DDG asked a question about a belief that I think Gould has- which bears slightly on the OP. Any further questions, statements, etc will be ignored. However, i would be willing to defend this in another thread. End of Hijack.** Racist statements like these annoy me deeply. Okay, **Daniel~,** I’m over in the Pit. And P.S. bring your search engine… 😉 [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57167](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57167) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/82 "2001-01-25T22:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by atarian \* > It **might** be a fact that Darwin was racist by todays standards. You can’t be serious. Darwin would be protested and hounded off any university campus today. > [@](#): > > _Atarian continues_ > However I did not accuse you of moralising, I didn’t say you were. I was merely quashing any possible and perhaps even reasonable assumption that I was, thus tainting the legitimacy of my argument. > [@](#): > > - Atarian continues\* > (incidentally, the full version actually makes much more sense, was your version given to you as is or did you do the pruning?) It does make more sense grammatically, however I find no change in the sense that was provided in the first place. To suggest that I did the pruning is akin to suggesting that I am dishonest. I therefore felt compelled to defend my honour and do a google search(negro australian gorilla) for the reference that I once had before me on the screen when I copied the particular phrase noting full well it could be controversial in future exchanges and that I had to be prepared to back it up. I found several locations using the same phrasing although with three or four extra periods after the word apes. One location is at [http://killdevilhill.com/darwinchat/messages2/3431.html](http://killdevilhill.com/darwinchat/messages2/3431.html). If my integrity is of concern to you then by all means check it out.By the way, was your punctuation error following the word\* remarked\* in your quotation deliberate? 😉 > [@](#): > > _ **Atarian finally admits he is wrong** _ > It’s clear from this that Darwin believes “the savage races” are some kind of “link” between apes and humans. Given the evidence available to him at that time, I can understand that. If that makes him a racist by today’s standards, fair enough. Well dude, isn’t that what I said? > [@](#): > > _ **but Atarian claims his confusion is my fault** > But you should qualify that label, as you are judging him out of the context of his own time._ By the standards of his society, he was certainly at the opposite end of the spectrum from most of his fellow “racists”. > > And on we go… \*\* And now finally\*\* Atarian\*\* I direct you to my first post in this thread . Go to the very last line of my post where I qualify Darwin’s racism in the context of the time. And then come back and apologise. _speaking to anyone who will listen_ \*\*IMHO, the attitude towards the black man reached its lowest point following Darwin’s publications.\*\*It was at least fortunate that the emancipation in America occured previously, because the sense of the black man as cursed under Ham deteriorated even further to comparison with the apes. To be sure. Darwin’s views were much more benevolent, but some of his racist ideas were expanded upon to ridiculous extremes, even by Creationists like my grandfather. I find that perplexing when I look back to his attitude only 40 years ago, and wonder if one believes we are all descended from Adam, then what justification is there to compare negroes to apes which he often did when relating his stories of visits to Africa. The poor situation in subSaharan Africa today is largely blamed on the colonial period. Notwithstanding the Dutch settlement in South Africa, I wonder if it is just coincidental that Europeans, particularly the British (Darwin’s country) found it neccessary to administrate regions of the continent, shortly after Darwin’s publications when there was really no significant return for the home country or reasonable expectation for white settlement, and readily abandoned after the second world war. Darwin was a racist, mildly in comparison to the immediate racist response, but quite seriously by standards of today. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/83 "2001-01-25T22:40:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by grienspace \* > .By the way, was your punctuation error following the word_ remarked\* in your quotation deliberate? 😉 Upon immediate review my suspicion of punctuation error was unfounded. My apologies.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2001, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/84 "2001-01-26T11:46:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by grienspace \* > > .By the way, was your punctuation error following the word_ remarked\* in your quotation deliberate? 😉 > > Upon immediate review my suspicion of punctuation error was unfounded. My apologies.🙂 \*\* Ta very much. I accept them with grace. Now… > [@](#): > > And now finally Atarian I direct you to my first post in this thread . Go to the very last line of my post where I qualify Darwin’s racism in the context of the time. And then come back and apologise. Your first post in this thread was: > [@](#): > > _Strictly speaking Darwin was a racist who believed the evolutionary process would result in the eventual disappearance of the black race.I make this point to simply to correct one misconception in hardcore’s post._ (My Italics) Why exactly should I be apologising? You do not qualify his racism at all in terms of time, you simply stated it as a fact. I’m fairly certain this was your first post in the thread, if not, **I** apologise and ask that you direct me to it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/85 "2001-01-26T16:21:43Z")
I direct you to the last line of my post of Jan 24, 12:31 am ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/86 "2001-01-26T17:54:55Z")
Those who are interested in a new collection of information about Hovind may want to visit [Analysis of Kent Hovind](http://www.geocities.com/kenthovind/). ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/87 "2001-01-27T00:18:02Z")
**grienspace** , this discussion has wandered far from the examination of Hovind’s idiocy, but I simply cannot allow your grievous errors in reasoning to go unchallenged. You continue to smear Darwin with the charge of racism, yet I don’t think you understand the definition of the word. Look it up [here](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) and educate thyself. Simply theorizing that a biological basis for the differences between races might exist does not make one racist, _especially_ in the 19th century when the data to make such a determination does not yet exist. Avail yourself of this hint – you must believe in the inherent superiority of a race due to these supposed biological differences in order to be classified as a racist. Once again, did Darwin believe the Caucasian to be superior? Possibly, but the quote you provided does not come near to proving your claim. He _implies_ a slightly closer relationship between Negroes and gorillas, from which you have taken the illogical leap of _inferring_ his belief in superiority, but it is not necessarily so. Had he claimed that one breed of dog was more closely related to wolves than another, would you automatically assume he considered one to be better? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by atarian \* > > It might be a fact that Darwin was racist by todays standards. > > \*\*You can’t be serious. Darwin would be protested and hounded off any university campus today. \*\* I think you might want to dust off that crystal ball and gaze a little deeper, Karnac. You have no idea how ridiculous this assertion sounds. One of the most influential scientists of the past 200 years would not be welcome at present day universities.:rolleyes: You might be right – at Oral Roberts, Bob Jones, or Liberty University. Were he to hold to a theory of a closer relationship between blacks and gorillas _in the face of present day evidence to the contrary_, then I agree he would likely stand accused of racism. You have no reasonable cause to suggest this to be the case. As to your feeble soliliquy designed to disparage Darwin for the sins of his countrymen, I cannot respond with anything remotely portraying my revulsion. _Even if_ anyone were to have used his theories to promote their own campaign of evil, this has no bearing whatsoever on Darwin, his theories, or the charge of racism. That we are even having this debate is a sad testament to the influence of Hovind and his ilk. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/88 "2001-01-27T00:28:49Z")
Can I suggest that maybe we’re all violently in agreement here? Hovind suggests that Darwin was a racist. Some posters suggest that this is a lie. Some other posters say, “well, if Darwin held the same beliefs today, he would be considered a racist - that’s probably where Hovind’s coming from.” First posters say, “How dare you accuse a great scientist of racism?!” Thread goes downhill from there. In particular, both **grienspace** and I have agreed that creationists who bring up the “Darwin was a racist” argument are simply trying to deflect examination of the real problems with their beliefs. Darwin was a great man, who was nevertheless a product of his times. If he had been born in our era, he would still be a great man, but a different one. If he were magically transported to our era and allowed to go running around on college campuses without any orientation as to what people have learned since his time… well, equality of races would probably be the last thing on his mind, given the differences in how students dress nowadays. Can we go back to Hovind’s “challenge” now? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/89 "2001-01-27T00:43:04Z")
Excellent analysis ENugent, and excellent summary as well. Now where were we? ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/90 "2001-01-27T00:50:51Z")
I concur **ENugent** (and **grienspace** ) and wholeheartedly agree we should return this hijacked thread to its originally scheduled topic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/91 "2001-01-27T12:54:18Z")
JonF said: > [@](#): > > Those who are interested in a new collection of information about Hovind may want to visit Analysis of Kent Hovind. How new is that site? I might want to post it in [Skeptic News](http://www.skepticnews.com). ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331/92 "2001-01-27T15:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > How new is that site? I might want to post it in [Skeptic News](http://www.skepticnews.com). > \*\* Pretty darned new, as far as I can tell … the author mentioned it in a post on t.o recently, I haven’t seen any reference to it elsewhere, I haven’t stumbled across it before, it says at the top it’s a first draft, and there are no entries in the guest book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entertain-me-please-the-hovind-evolution-challenge/51331.md?page=4)