# Entheogens and spirituality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454 "2004-12-24T07:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/21 "2004-12-26T21:19:44Z")
> [@Killgarren](#): > > That was right along the lines I was thinking. It is indeed easy to dismiss things simply because they are not natural. If anyone wants to dismiss drugs because they aren’t natural, LSD is a purely synthetic substance. It was developed by Albert Hofmann in a lab working for Sandoz. You mentioned in an earlier post “If LSD (which I’ve heard is amazing) where legal, sure, I’d be all about it.” If you are biased towards using natural psychedelics, then LSD should be avoided like DXM. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/22 "2004-12-26T21:29:16Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I’ve used DXM via robitussin and it really is a mind blowing and weird experience, though I doubt if I will ever use it again. But I wanted to ask besides the Olney’s lesions, etc. can’t using such high amounts of robitussin instead of pure DXM cause kidney damage, that was part of the reason I quit doing it because I was frightened it might cause some type of permanent damage. DXM has been used recreationally since way back in the 1960s. And a LOT of people have, and currently do, use it recreationally. If it did tend to cause kidney damage (or, liver damage, etc.) then I’d surely expect this to have appeared in peer reviewed literature. So far, it hasn’t. IIRC, all documented deaths have been due either to drug/drug interactions (one long ago with a MAOI antidepressant, and the rest polydrug abuse cases), or simple, old fashioned overdose. At very high levels, DXM causes respiratory depression. This can lead to asphyxiation; the same mode of death common with heroin and other narcotics. When it comes to possible organ damage, as drugs go DXM looks quite safe. In this regard, by comparison alcohol is FAR worse. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/23 "2004-12-26T21:38:32Z")
I am posting merely to subscribe and return for later comment. I know, i know, you can subscribe without posting… but everytime i try to do so i can’t find the link! ( i honestly think my page doesn’t have one) ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/24 "2004-12-26T21:41:32Z")
Thanks for the reply but I did not mean does DXM in and of itself cause damage, I asked if Robitussin does because many people use it and other cold medications because they contain the cough suppressant DXM. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/25 "2004-12-26T21:54:47Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Thanks for the reply but I did not mean does DXM in and of itself cause damage, I asked if Robitussin does because many people use it and other cold medications because they contain the cough suppressant DXM. If you mean specifically Robitussin Maximum Strength cough syrup, where the only active ingredient is DXM, safety is essentially the same as pure DXM. Basically, the inerts are just sugars, flavors, thickeners, and artificial colors. The same sort of things found in common, processed food. Thus, little difference between Robo Max, and swallowing a gelcap with pure DXM washed down with a glass of Pepsi. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/26 "2004-12-26T22:07:55Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > If anyone wants to dismiss drugs because they aren’t natural, LSD is a purely synthetic substance. It was developed by Albert Hofmann in a lab working for Sandoz. You mentioned in an earlier post “If LSD (which I’ve heard is amazing) where legal, sure, I’d be all about it.” If you are biased towards using natural psychedelics, then LSD should be avoided like DXM. Umm, no. Lysergic Acid Diethyamide is a [semi-synthetic](http://hallucinogens.com/hofmann/child1.htm) substance. Lysergic acid, its synthesis precursor, is naturally occuring. So is the psychoactive but less much potent Lysergic Acid Amide, which is present is certain vines like Morning Glory…etc Frankly, this dichotomy between artificial and natural should be avoided. What you need to be concerned about is toxicity, dependence and other such aspects. ---
**Author:** ![ninetypercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@ninetypercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ninetypercent)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/27 "2004-12-26T23:10:20Z")
The philosophical-mystical nonsense coming from the psychedelic drug using community is my favorite kind of nonsense. It’s like a perpetually nascent religion, because of the constant revision of beliefs that occurs between an individual’s use of their preferred chemical(s). DXM will definitely offer you some insight(i.e. delusional thinking) on the nature of reality and existence. It is similar in that way to [other] psychedelics. Not exactly the same, but close enough. IMO, very few people benefit from their drug use in any real way. Some of the experiences I’ve had are so fucking amazing that I’m glad that they happened, but I don’t think I am any more successful as a result. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/28 "2004-12-26T23:54:19Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > Umm, no. > > Lysergic Acid Diethyamide is a [semi-synthetic](http://hallucinogens.com/hofmann/child1.htm) substance. Lysergic acid, its synthesis precursor, is naturally occuring. So is the psychoactive but less much potent Lysergic Acid Amide, which is present is certain vines like Morning Glory…etc > > Frankly, this dichotomy between artificial and natural should be avoided. What you need to be concerned about is toxicity, dependence and other such aspects. While LSD could be synthesized from naturally occurring LSA, realistically today nobody would do so. [http://www.erowid.org/library/books\_online/tihkal/tihkal26.shtml](http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal26.shtml) There’s a likely LSD synth someone would do, and nothing derived from natural sources is used. I’m sure if I asked some chemists they could come up with a synth for DXM that used morphine extracted from opium. Of course no real chemist would actually start with morphine, as flipping the chiralty of the molecules would be far more difficult than just synthing DXM from scratch. Such if used would make the DXM produced semi-synthetic. I agree that this dichotomy between artificial and natural should be avoided. It’s a meaningless distinction. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/29 "2004-12-27T00:01:46Z")
> [@ninetypercent](#): > > The philosophical-mystical nonsense coming from the psychedelic drug using community is my favorite kind of nonsense. It’s like a perpetually nascent religion, because of the constant revision of beliefs that occurs between an individual’s use of their preferred chemical(s). > > DXM will definitely offer you some insight(i.e. delusional thinking) on the nature of reality and existence. It is similar in that way to [other] psychedelics. Not exactly the same, but close enough. > > IMO, very few people benefit from their drug use in any real way. Some of the experiences I’ve had are so fucking amazing that I’m glad that they happened, but I don’t think I am any more successful as a result. Not all in the psychedelic drug using community use that philosophical-mystical nonsense. Heck, years ago LSD (and also psilocybin) was a prescription drug used by psychiatrists as an aid in psychotherapy. To these psychiatrists, LSD was just another medicine. Many recreational users of psychedelics see nothing mystical about them. I am one such person. I have experienced profound religious “experiences” on high doses of DXM. As in thinking I had contacted the mind of God. However, after I sobered up I just chalked this up as being nothing more than a drug-induced delusion. As for DXM being useful for philosophical insight, I’d say it could do that. However, so can reading Plato and Aristotle, thus DXM is hardly special. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/30 "2004-12-27T00:41:13Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > While LSD could be synthesized from naturally occurring LSA, realistically today nobody would do so. AFAIK, all synthetjc chains leading to LSD, pass through lysergic acid, which occurs naturally. But it’s a useless point to bicker about, so I’ll let it be. ---
**Author:** ![TonyF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TonyF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyF)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/31 "2004-12-27T01:14:25Z")
I’m sort of on the other side of the coin. I’m not a spiritual person, so using drugs to “expand horizons” or what not sounds a bit silly to me. However, I have on occassion overheard things - in the classroom, for example - that had never occurred to me, and on occassion the implication of what I have heard generates a nice eureka moment that I wouldn’t have otherwise had. If a chemical can lead to other ways of seeing things, and this induces a positive eureka-like moment, sounds fine with me. I don’t care so much as to where an epiphany comes from - so long as it jives with me, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![ninetypercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@ninetypercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ninetypercent)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454/32 "2004-12-27T03:26:37Z")
> [@TonyF](#): > > I’m sort of on the other side of the coin. > > I’m not a spiritual person, so using drugs to “expand horizons” or what not sounds a bit silly to me. However, I have on occassion overheard things - in the classroom, for example - that had never occurred to me, and on occassion the implication of what I have heard generates a nice eureka moment that I wouldn’t have otherwise had. > > If a chemical can lead to other ways of seeing things, and this induces a positive eureka-like moment, sounds fine with me. I don’t care so much as to where an epiphany comes from - so long as it jives with me, I guess. Oh sure, psychedelics will offer you that eureka! moment. That sees to be a big part of the experience. A lot of the times what occurs to you is coherent enough to mean something in the real world. Unfortunately, it is mostly knowledge with no material value in and of itself. > [@rfgdxm](#): > > Not all in the psychedelic drug using community use that philosophical-mystical nonsense. Heck, years ago LSD (and also psilocybin) was a prescription drug used by psychiatrists as an aid in psychotherapy. To these psychiatrists, LSD was just another medicine. > Many recreational users of psychedelics see nothing mystical about them. I am one such person. I have experienced profound religious “experiences” on high doses of DXM. As in thinking I had contacted the mind of God. However, after I sobered up I just chalked this up as being nothing more than a drug-induced delusion. As for DXM being useful for philosophical insight, I’d say it could do that. However, so can reading Plato and Aristotle, thus DXM is hardly special. More interesting, though… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entheogens-and-spirituality/281454.md?page=1)