# Entomologists: What the heck are these moths doing?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 4, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324 "2009-08-04T19:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FalconFinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@FalconFinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FalconFinder)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/1 "2009-08-04T19:39:25Z")
So, movement from my sunken patio catches my eye. I look over to see two moths engaged in some weird behavior. At first, I thought maybe it was some kind of mating ritual, but what I looked up online didn’t corroborate that theory. I got some video so you could see the behavior tell me what is going on: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ry3T_abQwLg/hqdefault.jpg "Gypsy Moth Courtship?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3T_abQwLg) This went on for a good 20 minutes or more. The brown moth would fly away and come back to do this over and over. The white moth just walks around in circles. In fact, it’s been about an hour an a half and the white moth is still walking around in circles on my patio floor… I have more info in the video description. Is this some territorial display? Is the white moth dying? (it looks a bit ratty now and almost acts drunk) What kind of moths are these? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/2 "2009-08-05T01:54:06Z")
[Gypsy moths.](http://www.gypsy-moth.com/gypsy-moth-4.htm) Since what you seem to have there is a male and a female, I’d guess that is mating behaviour like you first suspected. Squish 'em. Squish 'em good and don’t feel bad about it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/3 "2009-08-05T02:14:58Z")
> [@FalconFinder](#): > > This went on for a good 20 minutes or more. The brown moth would fly away and come back to do this over and over. > > The white moth just walks around in circles. > > In fact, it’s been about an hour an a half and the white moth is still walking around in circles on my patio floor… > > … > > Is the white moth dying? (it looks a bit ratty now and almost acts drunk) The white moth is the female. Female gypsy moths are unable to fly. The males fly about looking for them. > [@](#): > > Is this some territorial display? I assume it’s courtship behavior, although I haven’t been able to find much on gypsy moth mating. ---
**Author:** ![FalconFinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@FalconFinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FalconFinder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/4 "2009-08-05T02:18:04Z")
Well, son of a gun. So they ARE gypsy moths! I’ve never seen them before. It says in the link you provided that the females can’t fly. She disappeared somewhere in the 3 o’clock hour but she didn’t seem able to climb up the 3 foot “wall” of my patio “pit” earlier on (I have an apartment that’s slightly below ground). I wonder how she got out? Well, now that I know better, I won’t be too friendly towards them. I checked out Wikipedia to see more about them and found that it’s natural predator was hanging around my door as well: > **[Braconidae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braconid_wasp)** > > 47, see text > Stenophasmidae Benoit, 1949 > The Braconidae are a family of parasitoid wasps. After the closely related Ichneumonidae, braconids make up the second-largest family in the order Hymenoptera, with about 17,000 recognized species and many thousands more undescribed. One analysis estimated a total between 30,000 and 50,000, and another provided a narrower estimate between 42,000 and 43,000 species. Maybe he took off with the female? Thanks for the info!! ETA: Maybe I have the first footage of the courtship process? LOL… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/5 "2009-08-05T15:13:21Z")
Speaking of moths, I saw an incredible (to me) looking moth flitting around my butterfly bush. At first I thought it was a hummingbird, but it was too small and not a bird. It allowed me a very close look. When I told my gf about it, I was kind of effusive describing it. She yawned and told me it was a sphinx moth. My ignorance (I had never seen one!) was fought. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/6 "2009-08-05T15:55:13Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Speaking of moths, I saw an incredible (to me) looking moth flitting around my butterfly bush. At first I thought it was a hummingbird, but it was too small and not a bird. It allowed me a very close look. When I told my gf about it, I was kind of effusive describing it. She yawned and told me it was a sphinx moth. My ignorance (I had never seen one!) was fought. 😉 Did she also tell you that they are (maybe) the infamous tomato worms in their youth? Too bad, because as moths they are really cool. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/7 "2009-08-05T16:14:14Z")
> [@cher3](#): > > Did she also tell you that they are (maybe) the infamous tomato worms in their youth? Too bad, because as moths they are really cool. No freaking way?!?! Very cool. ---
**Author:** ![FalconFinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@FalconFinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FalconFinder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/8 "2009-08-05T16:56:51Z")
I just looked up the Sphinx Moth. That is WAY cool! (Thought I’m not sure I’d be all that happy to see a moth the size of a hummingbird! :eek:) ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/9 "2009-08-08T04:29:42Z")
Hummingbird moth. [http://www.plantswap.net/forum/f58/bird-moth-5582/](http://www.plantswap.net/forum/f58/bird-moth-5582/) We’ve gotten these here before, and they are COOL! but I haven’t seen any in a couple of years now. ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/10 "2009-08-08T19:30:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Female gypsy moths are unable to fly. Hm. I wonder why they have wings. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/11 "2009-08-08T20:19:30Z")
For god’s sake kill them NOW! If you let them breed you’re a part of the problem, not the solution. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/12 "2009-08-08T20:44:53Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > Hm. I wonder why they have wings. Ostriches have wings, too. The females may have lost the power of flight too recently for there to have been much selection for reducing or losing the wings; or perhaps there isn’t strong selection for reducing them. Perhaps they serve as species recognition or mating signal for the male moth. ---
**Author:** ![SunSandSuffering](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@SunSandSuffering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunSandSuffering)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/13 "2009-08-09T00:02:02Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Squish 'em. Squish 'em good and don’t feel bad about it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/14 "2009-08-09T02:44:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Ostriches have wings, too. It would be reasonable to ask why. I would guess that ornithologists could give us a very good answer. > [@](#): > > The females may have lost the power of flight too recently for there to have been much selection for reducing or losing the wings; or perhaps there isn’t strong selection for reducing them. Perhaps they serve as species recognition or mating signal for the male moth. I don’t buy the “no strong selection” argument because 1. I would expect selection, based on wasted resources alone, to be sufficiently strong (greater than the reciprocal of population size) and 2. in any case, if there were no selection to keep wings they would be lost, even if there were no selection for loss. Sure, the other things are possible, but so are numerous guesses we could all make. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/15 "2009-08-11T19:12:09Z")
> [@SunSandSuffering](#): > > :rolleyes: [Right back atcha.](http://hyg.ipm.illinois.edu/article.php?id=66) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/16 "2009-08-12T05:17:48Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > It would be reasonable to ask why. I would guess that ornithologists could give us a very good answer. You guess wrong. No we can’t, at least any better than the ones I mentioned for the moth. > [@](#): > > I don’t buy the “no strong selection” argument because 1. I would expect selection, based on wasted resources alone, to be sufficiently strong (greater than the reciprocal of population size) and 2. in any case, if there were no selection to keep wings they would be lost, even if there were no selection for loss. Propose another hypothesis. > [@](#): > > Sure, the other things are possible, but so are numerous guesses we could all make. Make some guesses of your own, then, and we can see how well they fly.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FalconFinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@FalconFinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FalconFinder)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entomologists-what-the-heck-are-these-moths-doing/505324/17 "2009-08-12T14:08:23Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > For god’s sake kill them NOW! If you let them breed you’re a part of the problem, not the solution. I didn’t know what they were when I got the video, or I would have! I’ve been seeing the male around, but just as I get ready to open the slider to smash him, he flies away. The female flat out disappeared after 3pm that day. If she can’t fly, I have no idea how she got out of my patio pit. When she tried to walk the walls, she’d fall off. I’ve alerted my landlords and they plan to do something as we have lots of pretty trees they’d like to keep on the property. I have been seeing the predator wasp that eats the gypsy moth, so I’m hoping they’re having a good feed!