# Entrapment - Police whores and stupid fundamentalists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353 "2012-02-19T21:14:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/61 "2012-02-22T15:50:20Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Assuming that you are using “simply” the way an ordinary person would in that sentence, you are wrong, and I would guess you are wrong about everyone who has posted in this thread so far. You’re hanging your hat on “simply?” Fine. I withdraw “simply.” ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/62 "2012-02-22T16:09:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your problem is not the conduct of the officer. You simply don’t believe the conduct should be illegal, period. > > Right? Okay, then your question is: **“Your problem is not the conduct of the officer. You don’t believe the conduct should be illegal. Right?”** That’s now two questions. The answer to the first is, “wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/63 "2012-02-22T16:14:23Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > That’s a pretty sexist statement. I’m OK with that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/64 "2012-02-22T16:31:20Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Okay, then your question is: > > **“Your problem is not the conduct of the officer. You don’t believe the conduct should be illegal. Right?”** > > That’s now two questions. The answer to the first is, “wrong.” OK. And the answer to the second? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/65 "2012-02-22T16:34:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. And the answer to the second? Is “it’s irrelevant.” See my jaywalking analogy. The behavior of the police was unacceptable regardless of one’s position on marijuana legalization. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/66 "2012-02-22T17:00:26Z")
Sounds like a lovely community, if high school kids smoking pot is up towards the top of their list of problems. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/67 "2012-02-22T17:03:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What do you actually believe with respect to pot? > [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know, but how is this question relevant? It’s so much easier when you answer yourself like this… ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/68 "2012-02-22T17:14:47Z")
I’m a little curious **Bricker** as to where you draw your line on entrapment and what you consider a valid use of taxpayer resources. I’m not arguing the legality of marijuana (although I personally believe the current drug laws are the height of absurdity). What constitutes entrapment to you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/69 "2012-02-22T17:22:04Z")
You actually asked **Bricker** for a lecture on the finer points of legality? You _asked_ for it? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/70 "2012-02-22T17:59:53Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > No the fed’s haven’t guaranteed an occupancy rate (nor have any states yet, at least to the best of my knowledge) but if you’ll reread the quote I provided, "“It was because of [concerns about] immigration and the\*\* uptick in federal detention contracts \*\*that they were able to survive,” said Emily Tucker, advocacy policy director of Detention Watch. Aha. So if the federal government can put more folks in federal prisons then…somehow this helps states keep state prisons 90% full for CCA? ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/71 "2012-02-22T18:13:20Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Aha. So if the federal government can put more folks in federal prisons then…somehow this helps states keep state prisons 90% full for CCA? No. CCA and GEO group already _have_ both state and federal contracts. CCA is looking for expand the state prisons that it runs and requires a 90% occupancy rate guarantee as part of the sale contract. > [@](#): > > **elucidator** You actually asked Bricker for a lecture on the finer points of legality? You\* asked \*for it? Hey, it’s a slow day around here, I got nothing to kill on the farm and I’m avoiding cleaning the kitchen. I figure it would help while away the afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/72 "2012-02-22T18:21:27Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > No. CCA and GEO group already _have_ both state and federal contracts. > CCA is looking for expand the state prisons that it runs and requires a 90% occupancy rate guarantee as part of the sale contract. So the terrorists, incompetent or otherwise, continue to do dick-all for stuffing prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/73 "2012-02-22T18:54:02Z")
I’m not all that bothered by the high school sting, provided that the undercover cops were only on the buying end. If the cops were also on the selling end and pushing the kids to buy in order to become dealers, I’d have a problem. In fact, that’s the problem I have with some of the terrorism cases, such as the Hemant Lakhani case. When all the parties surrounding the target – the buyers, the sellers, the instigators – when they’re all government agents who are providing the motives, the impetus, the egging-on, and creating a situation of possible transactions that otherwise simply wouldn’t have existed – that sounds a lot more like entrapment to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/74 "2012-02-22T18:56:20Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > I’m a little curious **Bricker** as to where you draw your line on entrapment and what you consider a valid use of taxpayer resources. I’m not arguing the legality of marijuana (although I personally believe the current drug laws are the height of absurdity). > What constitutes entrapment to you? Entrapment happens when the subject is not predisposed to commit the underlying crime, and when the genesis and execution of the crime arises wholly from the urging of the government agent. Entrapment does not occur merely because the government agent offers a favorable – even a very favorable – opportunity to commit the crime. Enforcement of the criminal code is generally a valid use of taxpayer resources. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/75 "2012-02-22T19:00:19Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Is “it’s irrelevant.” See my jaywalking analogy. The behavior of the police was unacceptable regardless of one’s position on marijuana legalization. OK. I harbor a suspicion that if the underlying crime were something that you felt strongly about, like child porn, your distaste at the police actions would vanish. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/76 "2012-02-22T19:00:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Entrapment happens when the subject is not predisposed to commit the underlying crime, and when the genesis and execution of the crime arises wholly from the urging of the government agent. Which is exactly what this sounds like to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/77 "2012-02-22T19:21:49Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Which is exactly what this sounds like to me. I don’t agree. It only sounds that way if you completely credit the accused’s version and discount the undercover officer’s version. Are you doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/78 "2012-02-22T19:24:58Z")
Yes ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/79 "2012-02-22T19:36:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It only sounds that way if you completely credit the accused’s version and discount the undercover officer’s version. > > Are you doing that? > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Yes Well, the original story painted the accused as an honors student, trapped by a femme fatale cop. Does knowing that the “honors student” has multiple arrests as an adult, apart from this crime, change your mind? If not, why do you credit his version and discount hers? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353/80 "2012-02-22T19:42:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Does that scenario even make sense to you? > > There’s a federal crime committed when you ship bongs to certain states, but not to other states, based solely on the state’s laws? > > No. > > Under federal law (21 USC § 863), it is a crime anywhere in the country to sell or offer for sale drug paraphernalia, to use the mails or any other facility of interstate commerce to transport drug paraphernalia, or to import or export drug paraphernalia. > > You may dislike this law, but you can hardly argue that Chong, and his son, were violating it. They weren’t harangued or tempted into violating it. They had a business which sold bongs. Highly questionable. Here’s the [code](http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/21cfr/21usc/863.htm). Similar to the laws in my state, it requires that the items being sold are primarily intended for drug use. There’s a list of relevant factors. Otherwise, it would be illegal for me to buy my cigarette papers, or for my friend to own his meerschaum, because without the “intent” factor, those would also be illegal under the pertinent regulations. Chong was selling hand-crafted, blown-glass art pieces that could be used as water pipes. Primary purpose: art. Secondary purpose: water pipe. Intent to use them for illegal drugs: entirely on the purchaser. Not to mention the fraud committed by the DEA in order to get the company to ship to one of only two states willing to enforce the statutes. And the fact that Chong was only peripherally involved. His son owned & ran the business. The feds went for the show. After all, they’d spent $12 mil and had 55 whole arrests to show for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/entrapment-police-whores-and-stupid-fundamentalists/613353.md?page=5)